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Show me a study that extends the accent further into Florida and I'll consider it.
Nice links however I will have to partly side with jluke here to an extent. Maybe he and I am looking at this from an AA point of view. I can't honestly see how Clewiston, Florida is much different from Selma Alabama. My family and friends, born and raised in Miami-Dade County and Broward County, believes they are Southerners. That's all they believe they are. I also partly agree with that map. Why would they exclude Central and South Florida but include so much of South Texas?
You made a point that geographically and historically Miami and the likes were in the south but now culturally, are they "of" the South? I can agree with that question. But the same question could be asked for South Texas including parts of South Central Texas and the Hill Country. Over the past decades, these areas have changed so much that whatever was there has been heavily diluted. I think they colored Texas just a bit to much. That's my personal opinion.
Nice links however I will have to partly side with jluke here to an extent. Maybe he and I am looking at this from an AA point of view. I can't honestly see how Clewiston, Florida is much different from Selma Alabama. My family and friends, born and raised in Miami-Dade County and Broward County, believes they are Southerners. That's all they believe they are. I also partly agree with that map. Why would they exclude Central and South Florida but include so much of South Texas?
You made a point that geographically and historically Miami and the likes were in the south but now culturally, are they "of" the South? I can agree with that question. But the same question could be asked for South Texas including parts of South Central Texas and the Hill Country. Over the past decades, these areas have changed so much that whatever was there has been heavily diluted. I think they colored Texas just a bit to much. That's my personal opinion.
Spade - The maps, as I understand it, are not defining the "south" but the range of the southern accent. Having traveled in all these states, it feel pretty accurate to me. What carries even further weight with me is that although they illustrate the findings of three different studies, they are remarkably similar.
Nice links however I will have to partly side with jluke here to an extent. Maybe he and I am looking at this from an AA point of view. I can't honestly see how Clewiston, Florida is much different from Selma Alabama. My family and friends, born and raised in Miami-Dade County and Broward County, believes they are Southerners. That's all they believe they are. I also partly agree with that map. Why would they exclude Central and South Florida but include so much of South Texas?
You made a point that geographically and historically Miami and the likes were in the south but now culturally, are they "of" the South? I can agree with that question. But the same question could be asked for South Texas including parts of South Central Texas and the Hill Country. Over the past decades, these areas have changed so much that whatever was there has been heavily diluted. I think they colored Texas just a bit to much. That's my personal opinion.
The map indicates the extent of the Southern Accent. Outside of the black community, there really isn't a definable accent amongst white South Floridians.
Spade - The maps, as I understand it, are not defining the "south" but the range of the southern accent. Having traveled in all these states, it feel pretty accurate to me. What carries even further weight with me is that although they illustrate the findings of three different studies, they are remarkably similar.
All of y'all (you, Spade, and Polo) are making some good points, but I wanted to comment on this one in particular JM, as it -- at least IMHO -- stands out in that it makes one that is extremely important in defining a region.
I think most of us agree that there is really no way to "define the South" to everyone's satisfaction...else there would not be so many threads, arguments, debates, etc, about it.
But personally, I always thought that a generally shared common dialect/idiom was/is a primary aspect. Ranking right up there with self-identification and a a common history and flowing settlement culture that clearly offsets it from other parts of the country. Consider these:
The fact that -- as you noted -- the remarkably similar definitions -- exist as to the boundaries of "Southern American English" exist at all...I would venture to say, make a very good "case" for -- at the least -- a rough outline -- of "the South"
Sorry TJ...but the fact you were raised in the "Heart of Dixie" does not bestow any special credentials on you to define the South. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but you really do fit that definition of Deep South purist! And hey, being of Deep South ancestry, I know the breed full well...as some are distant cousins and we kid each other back and forth quite a bit! LOL
So before you presume the credentials? Then you must first explain what criteria "defines the South"? But even before that, how many books/articles have you read/studied about the South? Have you published anything about Southern culture/history? Are "Southern studies" a part of your avocation? If one can't do that...then nothing else will work as in terms of being a self-defined "authority". That is a little high falutin', dont you think, to presume an expertiese on the South just because you were born in the Deep South? I was born in Texas and have been here four generations...but I don't present myself as an "authority" on the Alamo upon birth certificate alone...
I think that people who are raised in the deep south should have authority over what is southern and what is not since we live in the deep south where southern culture is at it's strongest. I think I would have more credibility on what is southern being from Alabama then say a person who is from out west or from the northeast.
I have not read much articles about what "defines" the south. I know that certain places have southern vibes and places that fit in with another region. My opinions are not absolute they are just my opinions. Some states are historically southern but have failed to keep up with their southern reputations. Other states held on to their culture. If people are questioning your state being southern or not then that is a big indicator. I am not particularity stuck up about this subject, I just find it interesting how the most bashed region of the country is the one people are most curious about and seem to have strong opinions about. I just find it interesting and a bit ironic.
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But anyway, is to be "Southern" and have a Southern star dependent upon membership in the Confederacy? Southern Baptist Church domination? Southern American English spoken? What...? I can say, for instance, that Texas was the origin of the phrase "Empire State of the South."...in 1858. It was a charter member of the original CSA (and voted for secession at a higher percentage than did Alabama), so is that "Southern" enough?
Being southern is hard to explain. But in general southern to me is:
(in no particular order)
1.Southern dialect, not rural dialect or western dialect, but southern. Use of southernisms. I can tell if a person is from the south if they use certain words even if there accent is no where near thick like mine.
2.History Was in the confederacy or "almost" in the confederacy. State flag has confederate imagery like Georgia & Mississippi's flag. State included in the "solid south", confederate graveyards, etc
3. Large black population & scots-irish population (goes for rural areas as well)
4. Mostly Baptist, general Bible Belt culture
5. Southern climate, landscape, plant life
6. Common southern values and mannerisms
7. Cuisine examples, fried chicken, billboards advertising "southern foods"
8. Majority residents identify with the south, non-southern transplants complaining or raving about how the south is different
9. Mostly a Red State
10. Hospitality
Minor things
-confederate flags being flown
-stores and businesses with the name "dixie" "southern" "south" etc
-chain resturants mostly in the southern region, waffle house, cracker barrel, bojangles, FATZ ,
-birthplace of a food item commonly attached to the south like brunswick stew, mississippi mud pie, alabama white bbq sauce, south carolina mustard base bbq sauce, bourbon, etc
-conservative, christian radio stations
-plantation homes
- most homes and buildings have a neo-greek style to them
- listed as southern in the popular "Southern Living" magazine
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And Memphis, Birmingham, and Nashville have a different feel from San Antonio and Dallas and Houston. Do you see the irony here? All you are essentially saying is something that I fully agree with. That Texas is TEXAS. We ALL know that.
I agree but Houston is overall a southern city. A lot of people will say that TX is not southern even natives. The only part of TX that was involved with the civil war is the eastern part of the state? Correct me if I am wrong? If this is true then the native texans in other regions of the state do ont really have southern ancestors.
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But the basic elements of the state are Southern in origin. And you really havent provided anything to prove different other than the truth that most of Texas is not part of the classic Old South image. It is "western South", not "eastern South"...but the difference is only that is something akin (pun intended) between cousins, not a different family.
Eastern TX can be rightfully classified as "western south" but not the rest of TX. By western I am talking about west of the mississippi in this case. With that definition, the majority of the south is in the "southeast", while a huge portion of TX is not. The landscape and culture is different than the southeast. Not southern culture but texas culture all on it's own.
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So I ask again, what are the elements of Southern history and culture that -- in your opinion -- Texas lacks and makes it more akin to the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona?
Wish I could answer this more thoroughly as I have never been to the southwestern states of New Mexico and Arizona. I wonder if natives from those states would include Texas in their region. But anyway regarding the history part, Texas is in a similar situation to states like Florida, Missouri, Maryland, W VA etc, They all have southern history but today most of it is gone. Except with Florida except for southern FL. The only people that are southern in southern FL are mostly the blacks.
Texas geographically is definitely in the south. Eastern TX looks southern with the pine trees but the texas panhandle looks a lot like the Great Plains region which it is apart of. Southern TX is heavily mexican influenced.
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Well, Tennessee is close to Illinois! LOL It doesnt mean it is part of the Midwest!
That is true
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No it isn't and again, with all due respect, this is just another misconception on the part of some who know little about Texas history and its foundations...sans what they have seen in "western movies". True, Texas was once a Mexican possession, but let me just quote Raymond Gastil in his classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States"
Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."
Tex-Mex and chili? It is very different from that type of the true SW and Mexico, and most from the true SW and Mexico will shun it as being "fake" Mexican food. And for good reason...as it is sort of a combination of Southern and Mexican. Did you know that that the prototype of the Texas cowboy were of the Old South "cattle drover" tradition...not the Mexican vaquero? Further, that the whole Texas "cowboy and cattle" tradition directly stemmed from the fall of Vicksburg, in 1863?
I don't study Texan history I am not really a "history buff". I think history is a boring topic, but cowboys are still associated with the west. Southern gentlemen and southern belles are associated with the south. And yes they were/are different. IF cowboys are southern I guess the western "cowboy" states of Wyoming and Montana are "southern" too? Western movies that portray Texas as the wild wild west are very different then movies that portray the deep south. The movies based in the deep south are portrayed with giant oak trees, antebellum mansions, etc, while Texas is never portrayed in this way.
I have heard the term cowboy used as a derogatory term for black farmers in the south or something of that sort.
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Sorry, but this superficial aspect matters for very little in the bigger picture (no pun intended). No, it doesnt look "Southern" in the classic sense of "moonlight and magnolias". I have stated this many times before. That is to say, from a topographical point of view, western Texas is probably the "least Southern" of all areas of the Old Confederate states.
I agree here.
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But the thing is, the real important aspects in terms of regionalizing, is how the residents perceive themselves and historical and cultural aspects that trancend physiological considerations. For instance, the membership of the Southern Baptist Church in western Texas is on par with that of Mississippi and Alabama. What is known as Southern American English is nowhere stronger spoken and undiluted as in western Texas...
And that even leaves out that most in the western parts of the state, by a clear majority, consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners. Texans first? Of course. That is true all over the state. But it comes across somewhat smug and condecending on your part, to say they are wrong.
I will make an exception to those people who live in western texas to classify themselves as southerners. However I won't acknowledge a person calling themselves a "southerner" if they live outside the south or state that was never considered southern like Indiana for example. They don't need me to approve of them calling themselves southern but I just never thought of western TX being dixie southern. That part of Texas maybe no different than New Mexico or Arizona.
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Let me take it to a more personal level, ok? I am as much a Southerner as you are and consider myelf so, TreasuredJewel. If you think different? Then say so and why?
But with all that said, I appreciate your civil and courteous points, even if I disagree with them. I always respect a worthy opponent!
And with all that said? I need to call it an evening! Y'all all have a good night!
IF you don't mind me asking what part of Texas are you from? I don;t mind you calling yourself a southerner. I would not mind someone from the border states calling themselves southern either. Just remember that their are Texans who say Texas is not dixie southern. You won't hear native Alabamians saying that, since Alabama is undeniably southern.
Nice links however I will have to partly side with jluke here to an extent. Maybe he and I am looking at this from an AA point of view. I can't honestly see how Clewiston, Florida is much different from Selma Alabama. My family and friends, born and raised in Miami-Dade County and Broward County, believes they are Southerners. That's all they believe they are. I also partly agree with that map. Why would they exclude Central and South Florida but include so much of South Texas?
You made a point that geographically and historically Miami and the likes were in the south but now culturally, are they "of" the South? I can agree with that question. But the same question could be asked for South Texas including parts of South Central Texas and the Hill Country. Over the past decades, these areas have changed so much that whatever was there has been heavily diluted. I think they colored Texas just a bit to much. That's my personal opinion.
I explained on the previous page, how Miami even historically speaking wasn't "of" The South. The 1st blacks in Miami really, were Bahamians.
Sorry TJ...but the fact you were raised in the "Heart of Dixie" does not bestow any special credentials on you to define the South. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but you really do fit that definition of Deep South purist! And hey, being of Deep South ancestry, I know the breed full well...as some are distant cousins and we kid each other back and forth quite a bit! LOL
So before you presume the credentials? Then you must first explain what criteria "defines the South"? But even before that, how many books/articles have you read/studied about the South? Have you published anything about Southern culture/history? Are "Southern studies" a part of your avocation? If one can't do that...then nothing else will work as in terms of being a self-defined "authority". That is a little high falutin', dont you think, to presume an expertiese on the South just because you were born in the Deep South? I was born in Texas and have been here four generations...but I don't present myself as an "authority" on the Alamo upon birth certificate alone...
But anyway, is to be "Southern" and have a Southern star dependent upon membership in the Confederacy? Southern Baptist Church domination? Southern American English spoken? What...?
I can say, for instance, that Texas was the origin of the phrase "Empire State of the South."...in 1858. It was a charter member of the original CSA (and voted for secession at a higher percentage than did Alabama), so is that "Southern" enough?
And Memphis, Birmingham, and Nashville have a different feel from San Antonio and Dallas and Houston. Do you see the irony here? All you are essentially saying is something that I fully agree with. That Texas is TEXAS. We ALL know that.
But the basic elements of the state are Southern in origin. And you really havent provided anything to prove different other than the truth that most of Texas is not part of the classic Old South image. It is "western South", not "eastern South"...but the difference is only that is something akin (pun intended) between cousins, not a different family.
So I ask again, what are the elements of Southern history and culture that -- in your opinion -- Texas lacks and makes it more akin to the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona?
Well, Tennessee is close to Illinois! LOL It doesnt mean it is part of the Midwest!
No it isn't and again, with all due respect, this is just another misconception on the part of some who know little about Texas history and its foundations...sans what they have seen in "western movies". True, Texas was once a Mexican possession, but let me just quote Raymond Gastil in his classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States"
Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."
Tex-Mex and chili? It is very different from that type of the true SW and Mexico, and most from the true SW and Mexico will shun it as being "fake" Mexican food. And for good reason...as it is sort of a combination of Southern and Mexican. Did you know that that the prototype of the Texas cowboy were of the Old South "cattle drover" tradition...not the Mexican vaquero? Further, that the whole Texas "cowboy and cattle" tradition directly stemmed from the fall of Vicksburg, in 1863?
Sorry, but this superficial aspect matters for very little in the bigger picture (no pun intended). No, it doesnt look "Southern" in the classic sense of "moonlight and magnolias". I have stated this many times before. That is to say, from a topographical point of view, western Texas is probably the "least Southern" of all areas of the Old Confederate states.
But the thing is, the real important aspects in terms of regionalizing, is how the residents perceive themselves and historical and cultural aspects that trancend physiological considerations. For instance, the membership of the Southern Baptist Church in western Texas is on par with that of Mississippi and Alabama. What is known as Southern American English is nowhere stronger spoken and undiluted as in western Texas...
And that even leaves out that most in the western parts of the state, by a clear majority, consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners. Texans first? Of course. That is true all over the state. But it comes across somewhat smug and condecending on your part, to say they are wrong.
Let me take it to a more personal level, ok? I am as much a Southerner as you are and consider myelf so, TreasuredJewel. If you think different? Then say so and why?
But with all that said, I appreciate your civil and courteous points, even if I disagree with them. I always respect a worthy opponent!
And with all that said? I need to call it an evening! Y'all all have a good night!
And, my good Friend, what would those East-enders do without us West-enders in terms of country music?
Us Okies and Texans rule the roost when it comes to bigtime country music stars:
OkieVille:
Merle Haggard
Norma Jean
Blake Shelton
Reba
Toby Keith
Vince Gill
Keith Anderson
Joe Don from Rascal Flatts
Carrie Underwood
Garth Brooks
Roy Clark
The Great Divide
Roger Miller
Restless Heart
Ronnie Dunn from Brooks&Dunn
Mel McDaniel
Wade Hayes
Bryan White
Ricochet
(These are just the ones off the top of my head and I'm not even including Woodie Guthrie, Gene Autry, and a little ol' guy by the name of Will Rogers!.....not to mention our own brand of Rockabilly here in Oklahoma/Texas = RedDirt with the likes of Cross Canadian Ragweed and Stoney LaRue and many others....)
Texas
Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys* (we'll share BWills as he really became famous in Tulsa...."Take Me Back to Tulsa")
Willie Nelson
George Straight (the King!)
George Jones
Robert Earl Keen
Kennie Rogers
Buddy Holly
Miranda Lambert
Leanne Womack
Charlie Robison
John Rich from Big & Rich
Waylon Jennings
Eli Young Band
Kevin Fowler
Jerry Jeff Walker
Billy Joe Shaver
The Dixie Chicks (although I don't know if you want to claim 'em)
....I'm sure there are a slew of Texans I'm forgetting right now. Feel free to add to the list!
Thanks for a courteous and civil reply....but naturally we are going to disagree...LOL
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Originally Posted by TreasuredJewel
I think that people who are raised in the deep south should have authority over what is southern and what is not since we live in the deep south where southern culture is at it's strongest. I think I would have more credibility on what is southern being from Alabama then say a person who is from out west or from the northeast.
First of all you proceed from a premise that, again, sorta typlifies that of a "Deep South purist!: That is, you seemingly presume an authority that many (definitely me) will take immediate issue with because, for one thing, I don't accept it. What you are doing is defining the South from your own perspective. That is fine. But what you don't seem to realize is that many of us out here see it as not only false, but arrogant and condecending (in a very negative sense).
Perhaps some who live in the Deep South DO have some kind of authority to define the South...assuming the rest of their credentials are in order. Some people from Texas may have a certain authority to speak on the history of the Texas Revolution...assuming the rest of their credentials are in order. But point being, all that and a dollar will get one a draw beer or a cup of coffee if they have nothing else to back it up.
And if you were discussing/debating with someone from the Northeast or West? Then yeah, then I would certainly agree with your point. Instead, you are doing so with a native Texan and Southerner who -- I promise you -- knows a bit about Southern history/culture and my own states' relationship to it. I am not trying -- I swear -- to toot my own horn, but I can back up what I say.
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I have not read much articles about what "defines" the south. I know that certain places have southern vibes and places that fit in with another region. My opinions are not absolute they are just my opinions. Some states are historically southern but have failed to keep up with their southern reputations. Other states held on to their culture. If people are questioning your state being southern or not then that is a big indicator. I am not particularity stuck up about this subject, I just find it interesting how the most bashed region of the country is the one people are most curious about and seem to have strong opinions about. I just find it interesting and a bit ironic.
Now you are sounding a little more reasonable and I would agree with certain parts of this....with the absolute qualification that yes, you are right in that it is only your opinion. Just as mine is only mine. I have no problem with that at all. There are a hundred -- probably literally -- of what traits/characteristics defines the South. My only issue is that some -- as you seem to -- seem to take for granted that that the classic "Old South" image is the standard against all else must be measured. At one time, I might have even believed it...but the more I study/read/research/write about that ellusive region known as "the South"...the more I have realized it is not all that simple.
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Being southern is hard to explain. But in general southern to me is:
(in no particular order)
1.Southern dialect, not rural dialect or western dialect, but southern. Use of southernisms. I can tell if a person is from the south if they use certain words even if there accent is no where near thick like mine.
2.History Was in the confederacy or "almost" in the confederacy. State flag has confederate imagery like Georgia & Mississippi's flag. State included in the "solid south", confederate graveyards, etc
3. Large black population & scots-irish population (goes for rural areas as well)
4. Mostly Baptist, general Bible Belt culture
5. Southern climate, landscape, plant life
6. Common southern values and mannerisms
7. Cuisine examples, fried chicken, billboards advertising "southern foods"
8. Majority residents identify with the south, non-southern transplants complaining or raving about how the south is different
9. Mostly a Red State
10. Hospitality
Minor things
-confederate flags being flown
-stores and businesses with the name "dixie" "southern" "south" etc
-chain resturants mostly in the southern region, waffle house, cracker barrel, bojangles, FATZ ,
-birthplace of a food item commonly attached to the south like brunswick stew, mississippi mud pie, alabama white bbq sauce, south carolina mustard base bbq sauce, bourbon, etc
-conservative, christian radio stations
-plantation homes
- most homes and buildings have a neo-greek style to them
- listed as southern in the popular "Southern Living" magazine
Ok. Fair enough. I asked a question and got an answer that I wouldn't really disagree with too terribly much...yet with qualifications. As to the point of our exchange though, did know that, all in all, Texas fits every one of the criteria? As do all of the other so-called "peripheral South" states of the Old Confederacy (and border states such as Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia).
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I agree but Houston is overall a southern city. A lot of people will say that TX is not southern even natives. The only part of TX that was involved with the civil war is the eastern part of the state? Correct me if I am wrong? If this is true then the native texans in other regions of the state do ont really have southern ancestors.
Wellllll, consider yourself very corrected. LOL And with all due respect, it just isn't true and I am a bit surprised you would even say/think such a thing in the sense of making a debating point, without having first looked into a little more.
Yes, somewhere a little west of Ft. Worth (the Fort trail)was about the furthest extension of settlement during the War days. But who in the world do you think settled western parts of the state after the War? It was overwhelmingly East Texans and southeasterners looking to get a new start.. Generally, they were ex-Confederate soldiers and their families. I mean, would it make sense that, coming west, that they just suddenly abandoned their basic history, attitudes, heritage, culture, etc? Heck, just to think of a few examples without pausing for breath...most if not all counties in west Texas have a Confederate monument on the grounds, and many (Lubbock, Scurry, Davis, Hood, etc,) are named after Confederate figures. These people were Southerners and never thought of themselves as anything else. Another thing you noted above? About high school mascots and all? Two high schools I can think of right off the bat in further west Texas started with a traditionally "Johnny Reb" theme (Amarillo Tascosa Rebels and Midland Robert E. Lee Rebels).
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Eastern TX can be rightfully classified as "western south" but not the rest of TX. By western I am talking about west of the mississippi in this case. With that definition, the majority of the south is in the "southeast", while a huge portion of TX is not. The landscape and culture is different than the southeast. Not southern culture but texas culture all on it's own.
No, actually at least a goodly part of far East Texas is fairly Southeast and very much an extension of the Deep or Old South. Granted, you may have a different definition of "western South"...but I am going by the one that -- of course my opinion -- that makes the most sense. That is, the southeast moved into a more western/frontier environment. Essentially Southern, but having traits of the frontier west that differenitate it from eastern parts of the South. An example I am prone to use is that Kansas is a "western state"...but its real character was shaped by settlers from the eastern Midwest. Same as Texas was by the eastern South.
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Wish I could answer this more thoroughly as I have never been to the southwestern states of New Mexico and Arizona. I wonder if natives from those states would include Texas in their region. But anyway regarding the history part, Texas is in a similar situation to states like Florida, Missouri, Maryland, W VA etc, They all have southern history but today most of it is gone. Except with Florida except for southern FL. The only people that are southern in southern FL are mostly the blacks.
There is a certain good point here. But to answer your question, every regional/sociological study I have ever seen, indicates that the answer is no (and I will DM them to you if you want). Most from Arizona and New Mexico do not regard themselves as part of the same "Southwest" as Texas and Oklahoma. There is a common "designation" shared...but that is about it.
But the more important one is that the clear majority of Texans self-identify as living in the South and thinking of themselves as Southerners. Something in stark contrast to those states to the west which feel themselves clearly more in the "West" and to be "Westerners".
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Texas geographically is definitely in the south. Eastern TX looks southern with the pine trees but the texas panhandle looks a lot like the Great Plains region which it is apart of. Southern TX is heavily mexican influenced.
And north Alabama looks a lot like the Appalachian regions of Pennsylvania...but that doesn't make them part of the same historical/cultural region. Did you read earlier the summation I posted earlier about how, while the Mexican influence is very heavy, that is has a whole different character/history than that of the true interior Southwest?
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I don't study Texan history I am not really a "history buff". I think history is a boring topic, but cowboys are still associated with the west. Southern gentlemen and southern belles are associated with the south. And yes they were/are different. IF cowboys are southern I guess the western "cowboy" states of Wyoming and Montana are "southern" too
No, you misread. I never said cowboys are always necessarily "southern". I said that the prototype of the TEXAS cowboy was the direct decendant of the "Old South" cattle drover, not the Mexican vaquero. This is not true of other "western" states." Another difference is, that -- unlike Texas -- Wyoming and Montana were never considered Southern states at all. So toss that one out.
To take another angle, Massachussetts and South Carolina share a certain heritage of Atlantic deep sea fishing. But that is only because they are on the Atlantic coast...not because they are part of the same historical/cultural region. That doesn't make Massachusetts a Southern state. It just means that some circumstances made for a common way of making a living for some in the "east". Same as with Texas and other "western" states made for the same. It didn't mean they were decended from the same stock (no pun intended). Just on a related tangent, many of those old gunfights in Kansas cowtowns were traceable to animosities existing from "the War" between former Confederate Texans turned cowboy, and fromerly Union marshalls and townspeople from the northern "cowtowns." They might do business with each, but they still didn't like one another much! LOL
Anyway, see what I mean? What it boils down to is that, because of the physical environment, it was only natural that cattle would become something "western"...but the people who made the living didn't generally share anything else. Anymore than South Carolinian shrimpers did with those from New England.
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Western movies that portray Texas as the wild wild west are very different then movies that portray the deep south. The movies based in the deep south are portrayed with giant oak trees, antebellum mansions, etc, while Texas is never portrayed in this way.
This is all true. Which is why I believe Hollywood movies impart a false image in many ways. Don't get me wrong, I love those old westerns! Just on another related tangent, did you know some of those more modern day flicks supposedly set in the Deep South, were actually filmed in East Texas? (Southern Comfort and Long Hot Summer are good examples).
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I will make an exception to those people who live in western texas to classify themselves as southerners. However I won't acknowledge a person calling themselves a "southerner" if they live outside the south or state that was never considered southern like Indiana for example. They don't need me to approve of them calling themselves southern but I just never thought of western TX being dixie southern.
Well, that is might mighty nice of you, ma'am -- *tips imaginary cowboy hat* -- since probably most of them from western Texas are decended from Confederate soldiers and Southern belles who took it and made it the most productive cotton-growing area in the world! LOL
But seriously, I am being a bit facitious, myself, so don't take it personal. I agree with you about (and alluded to earlier) about states that were never considered Southern to begin with. And no, western Texas is certainly not what anyone would conjure up in imagry if one considers the term "Dixie." All I am really saying is that even West Texas and its whole character is essentially a product of the American South, even if on the very extreme edge.
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IF you don't mind me asking what part of Texas are you from? I don;t mind you calling yourself a southerner. I would not mind someone from the border states calling themselves southern either. Just remember that their are Texans who say Texas is not dixie southern. You won't hear native Alabamians saying that, since Alabama is undeniably southern.
No problem I am from North Texas...about 100 miles NW of Dallas. And I will remember what you said about Alabama. BUT...*winks*...on the most extensive survey ever done on the subject (I'll DM it to you if you want...and you can read it on an earlier post), can you believe that 2% of Alabamans did NOT say they lived in the South? And that roughly 10% of those surveyed did not answer "yes" when asked if they considered themselves "Southerners"?
What is one to make of THAT?!?! LOL Ok...I gotta get out of here for the evening. Again, enjoyed the talk and hammering back and forth. DM me if you want more info on some of the stats I mentioned!
Last edited by TexasReb; 11-14-2011 at 08:32 PM..
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