Can a union tradesman survive in Fort Collins? (Denver, Boulder: sales, house)

[jimboshanz]

Thanks for the reply sunsprit. That was very helpful. Why would you say the cost of living is higher? It seemed that grocery, clothes were about the same, but property taxes were a huge difference. There also seemed to be a huge difference in gas prices. Tell me more. I'd be iterested to here from you.

[sunsprit]

RE: Colorado cost of living ... Front Range population boom is forcing big increases in infrastructure to support schools, public services, roads, public works, etc. ... which is driving tax rates upward.

Coupled with the locally increased demand for housing and higher prices ... which yield higher assessed valuations for the tax base, the effective tax burden is going up. With a new mortgage, the assessor has an easy top dollar valuation compared to trying to raise the valuation (every two years reviewed per statute) of an existing property on the tax rolls.

An influx of liberal attitude people replacing the previously very conservative local population is bringing a demand for increased social and community public services. So, we're seeing exploding government service levels and increased costs/taxes, more office space ... all paid for with higher tax rates and revenues to feed the demand.

You can check gasoline prices on the internet daily, and I don't believe you'll see a huge disparity between Colorado front range and Chicago prices. You may, however, be commuting longer distances here for work and recreation.

Food prices, especially fresh fruits/vege's tend to be higher. Just has a lot to do with the shipping costs and the relatively smaller population base/density to support the stores. Sam's Club, Costco have a good presence and have forced Albertson's, King Sooper's, Safeway to lower their prices in the region; you'll have to go through your local stores to compare quality/prices. You'll find substantial differences in various departments from chain/store to store locations across a metro area ... and you may find that higher prices at one store are justified by the quality/selection.

[skigirl]

Originally Posted by jimboshanz

I hope you are enjoying yourself in Chi-town. Thanks for the reply .

Thank you I love it here.

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Best of luck with your relocation. You will take a decrease in pay to come out to Colorado, and the costs of living may actually be higher than Chicago.

Unfortunately I have to agree. It (in my experience) is much easier to live in Chicago than it was in Colorado. The somewhat lower cost of housing simply doesn't make up for the loss in pay. It would likely be a sacrifice for you but it is a beautiful place to live.

[sunsprit]

just today got my Eagle County property tax bill for the year. The mill levy is 49.625 ... which is less than I paid in Weld County (an area to the south of Fort Collins). The assessors have to appraise your property to it's FMV, and then apply a percentage basis to determine a taxable value. The percentage varies from county to county, so you should ask about it when you're looking at property. Don't forget to ask about "special tax" districts, which are local tax zones which are voted in to fund public works projects, public transportation, etc ... they can add to your property tax bill.

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

just today got my Eagle County property tax bill for the year. The mill levy is 49.625 ... which is less than I paid in Weld County (an area to the south of Fort Collins). ... you should ask about it when you're looking at property. Don't forget to ask about "special tax" districts, which are local tax zones which are voted in to fund public works projects, public transportation, etc ... they can add to your property tax bill.

that's good advice... our local rates vary a lot based on fire / school districts, you can move across the street and drop taxes by 30%,

BTW, after all the 'magic' numbers, what would the tax be on a $300k home in your district? (just looking for a benchmark, as I determine, CO, WY, MT, ID, WA and OR taxes)

We (WA,-no income tax) currently get taxed on 100% of perceived FMV ~$15/$1000. My home that I built for $100k is assessed at ~$800k and I pay ~ $12k in prop taxes, ~ $30/night An assessor having a bad day can price you out of your home.

[sunsprit]

janb ...

the percentage of FMV is 8% for properties in my Colorado resort area home. So, based upon your $300K FMV, you'd be paying a 49.625 mill levy on $24,000, or $1,200 a year.

In today's marketplace up there, it's unlikely you could buy a studio apt for $300K. We just got a big glossy 30 page marketing paper from a major real estate broker up there and building sites in the area ... that's just a site with a view lot ... were in the $1mil and up range. There were a few nice condo's in the mid-high six figures, and a few homes that weren't view sites or nicely located in that price range. Of course, they had a lot of homes listed in the $1.5 to $14mil range.

The area is one of high economic density and is able to keep the mill levy low to generate the required cash for the schools, infrastructure, services, etc. Part of what keeps the tax bill low is that there's a relatively small permanent resident population which keeps the enrollment/funding for schools pretty low.

Our last Weld County 5 acre ag homesite with a 2,400 sq ft home and outbuildings in 1999 was appraised at $300K and the tax bill then was $2,000.

Colorado is an income tax state, about 3% rate.

State sales tax runs 3%, local taxes usually come in about 3-4%. Some areas are a little higher.

Motor vehicle ownership & registration is based upon manufacturer/NADA listed weight; after the first few years from new, the cost is pretty nominal. My upline german cars got down to $40 or so per year for plates after 10 years, and 3/4 ton pickup trucks were about $80. I don't buy anything with less than 100K miles on the odo, so I'm usually driving older (much less expensive) vehicles for a couple hundred thousand miles before retiring them.

You are correct re special taxing districts adding substantially to a tax bill. Also, local tax districts may be formed for special public works projects such as curbs, gutters, sidewalks ... at municipal project rates which seem exorbitant compared to what a private contractor might put in your sidewalk, for example. And, I've seen several county areas where increased population density strained the groundwater supplies and contaminated the wells from too many septic systems; various regulatory EPA or water quality authorities ordered homes in the area to be hooked up to a water/sewer provider, at a cost in the high 5 figures (or even more!) to each home. A real problem for older folks on fixed incomes who bought there years ago for the inexpensive living within their means.

I'd also be very careful re HOA districts. My SW Denver area home had an aggressive landscaping comittee that determined whether or not you house was up to their standards for cosmetic appearance, and ordered you to paint the place if it didn't meet their "standards". At $1,200-1,800 per exterior paint cost for me. For some unknown reason, they tagged my house almost every year for needing paint, and in 12 years there I had to re-paint 7 times. That, or face daily fines from the HOA which had been upheld by the local courts; if you didn't pay, they'd lien the house.

The petty BS from the HOA is what drove me out of the subdivision; guess I didn't fit in with their idea of a good neighbor with my cars (all licensed and insured, actively driven) parked in the driveway and boats in the side and backyard (but, your honor, they're "children's play apparatus" ....).

[sunsprit]

janb

now, for Wyoming.

appraised value will initially be the higher of sale price or valuation determined by county assessor's comparable values for home square footage and features, and land valuation.

In our case, the appraised value for our ranch came down for the first few years after purchase to match comp data for the farm and ranch land values in the area. The tax rate was minimal, with our bill coming in around $650/year.

The tax rate/assessed value has gone steadily since, and it's now about $1,800 year. We recently added two 40 acre parcels that cost about $15 each per year in taxes ... unimproved ranch land.

While the net population in the county has changed by only a few, the nature of the folks moving in has replaced the old ways where public services/works were neither funded, expected or wanted. So, local tax rates are going up to fund public services, schools, and public works and all the little growing fiefdoms that come with increasing administrative burdens.

Wyoming has no income tax.

Water and sewer districts may be a substantial cost in a local area, or may be almost non-existent costs with a good well and septic system.

Sales taxes run 6-8%, depending upon the county and town tax areas.

Overall, tax costs are pretty minimal here compared to most states. Has a lot to do with the state taxes on the extractive industries here funding a large portion of state needs.

You will spend a lot more on transportation here than in other metro areas in the US. Distances are vast for even the most basic of items. My wife drives over 2,000 miles per month just going to work and back for a part-time job in town. Shopping is a 65 mile round trip for us. The closest truck stop for our fuel is an 18 mile roundtrip, and I don't like their fuel ... so I go into town for better quality if at all possible.

Annual vehicle license fees about three-four times the Colorado rate at the lowest Wyoming annual fee ... and it is much higher for the first few years of a new vehicle.

MV insurance seems to be rather higher in Wyoming than Colorado, too.

For many people, the low level of Wyoming services the low taxes provide may be a concern if you're expecting to have all the public services and stuff you got for "free" back home.

[Mike from back east]

janb....thanks for posting some real numbers....here are mine....

- Our house in Colorado Springs is worth $600k, with taxes for 2007 at $3300.
- CO income tax for 2005 was $860 for 6.5 months. (Haven't done 2006 yet.) I estimate $1700 for 2007.
- My total is $5000 for 2007, versus $12,000 you're paying in WA. That's a big difference, but other data I can quickly google show the total tax burden for WA and CO to be about the same, so not sure how the differences even out, or even if they do.

Note, our gross income (we're retired) for 2005 was $85k, which included about $20k in stock market profits for stocks we sold to finance the down payments and moving expenses. Our income for 2007 will be $75k at most...

- CO Tax Info: http://www.retirementliving.com/RLstate1.html#COLORADO
- WA Tax Info: http://www.retirementliving.com/RLst...tml#WASHINGTON

Taxes are an endless topic as there are so many tweaks between states on state/county/city general sales tax; real estate tax - which varies between each/every city/county in a given state; gasoline tax; cigarette tax; city income tax; school tax; library tax; auto & personal property tax; ... need a wizard to figure out which state/county may be more affordable than another... and when people consider tax affordability against other factors (school quality, jobs, pay levels, weather, etc) they end up in a never ending loop of comparisons.

s/Mike

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

janb
""so I'm usually driving older (much less expensive) vehicles for a couple hundred thousand miles before retiring them.

now, for Wyoming.
...
Overall, tax costs are pretty minimal here compared to most states. ... Distances are vast for even the most basic of items. ...I don't like their fuel ... so I go into town for better quality if at all possible.
..
Mike from back east
Taxes are an endless topic as there are so many tweaks between states ..

Thanks guys very helpful, The 'real' data is important for my future decisions. I'll probably hold off on buying a 'primary residence, but I do need to get my commercial props rolled on 1031's (have sold 2 already this year). Likely will keep my 'primary' residence (on paper) in WY or WA, and try a few locations, including CO for no longer than 5 months at a time. I might be wise to keep 'income' props in WY and OR as well (or other tax free states). I'm using 'pass-thru' LLC's to hold them. I'm not sure I can digest returning to NO Colo, as it has really changed (l was resident 1960-82), but still frequent the area.

taxes / overall 'real' costs are important to me since I have many yrs ahead in 'retirement'. (hoping...). I think the US / County Governments / taxing authorities are in for a major "hic-cup" when they realize the 'Boomers' have done fizzled out in their ability to pay for sustained huge infrastructure, and the large exodus of companies (to avoid Sarbanes-Oxley Act) and Buyout's to foreign investors (witness, yesterday's approval of OREGON STEEL > Russia ) will result in much reduced tax base. (valuations, sales and income)

I would like to find the source of cost comparison data that was posted here https://www.city-data.com/forum/wyomi...wyoming-2.html

""HighestCost of Living overall / Housing cost)
1. Teton (Jackson) W. Wyoming 134/160
...
15. S. Lincoln (Kemmerer) SW Wyoming 91/86""

where can I (quickly) get these ##'s ?

Vehicle registration info appreciated, as WA used to be based on value, so I started driving junkers...
My "upscale German cars" consist of 20+ Diesel VW's...most costing less than $100, (they usually have more than a couple hundred thousand miles..) & My bumper sticker would read "50MPG since 1976, Where've you been?... Bio-Diesel , no Dinosaurs or OPEC required". (a slight jab, since "Prius" is 'king of the 'earth friendly' PDX area, many more of them for sale, used (35mpg) than diesel VW's...(no future HUGE battery replacement costs))

I am aware of the 'vast distances' in WY, since I had an 800 mile 'newspaper / Movie Film rte' for 7 yrs there. And as a 'fixed (no) income' guy the cost of transportation is now significant (even with free 'fryer grease'). When I have to 'buy' fuel, it is tough to have to dump $40 of fuel in my $35 car . I get my tires for $5 at the local junk yard, and have my own tire machine , don't mind the driving, but maint and fuel costs / trouble add up fast.

To keep on topic... For the union Tradesman..., I feel Ft Col is a very good value for tax burden. Good schools and services for the value; and a responsible and committed local society; Good career and recreation opportunities.
I feel cost of living to be quite comparable w/ Chic. excluding home prices; which due to demand, Colo is currently at a premium. Groc slightly higher in CO, but energy higher in IL. While the front range is getting quite crowded, I'd still take it over the Chic metro area. I was navigating Chic during a few weeks last year for work, and was not very pleased with the arterial traffic that seemed to take forever to get a short distance once you were off the Freeways. Living in Ft Col, I would expect a 15-20min commute, vs 1hr + in Chic. That time adds up over a few yrs. Some of my contacts in Ft Col, have had to go to Wellington for lower housing costs, or to Severence. Even Nunn ""Watch Nunn Grow""

Thx again for useful specific info!! (I did get a PM from a gal in Cody who claimed prop tax to be $3500/yr on a $300K prop! I haven't seen that in WY, I have the assessor's phone number and will give him a call.)

[sunsprit]

The Cody property mill levy is a lot lower than that.

I'd bet that the house is located in an area that has a special district for street/road improvements, and/or new water/sewer requirements; the district taxes to get the investment cost back ASAP.

We're seeing this happen in rural areas that are being (forcibly) annexed or adjacent to annexed subdivisions. Weird stuff happens ... you may have a developer incoporate/annex a property down or across from the 'ole county dirt road by you. When the paved road goes in, you get taxed for the flagpole road portion going by your place and the utilities district may require you to hook up to the water and sewer now that it's by you. So, there's tap fees to be paid via the property tax, and then you ... an innocent homeowner ... get to pay for the hookup from your property line to your house. (Option B, you can do without running water and sewer. Bottled water to drink, a porta-potti, and showers at the YMCA gym in town. I know a couple of folks who've gone this route in protest of forced "improvements" that cost more than their house and land and couldn't or wouldn't pay it).

You get to share in the costs of building the new annexation without getting benefits. Then again, maybe it's an improvement to your place with the developer helping to bring in water and sewer and natural gas to your area; just depends upon your point of view.