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Russia didn't destabilize Ukriane. What happened there is plain for all to see. Unfortunately some have convinced themselves that black is in fact white.
George Orwell would be proud.
Russia has been destabilizing Ukraine since 2004. It stepped it up once the people in Ukraine decided they want a better European style of government. What can Russia do about Ukraine now? Attack the Donbas (the only area with pro Russians)? How is that going to work out long term. The rest of Ukraine is growing and the east is declining behind Putin's new iron curtain. Look at Kiev, there is a construction boom. Lots of people living there from Donetsk. Hmmm interesting isn't it? Why wouldn't they flee to Russia where it is supposedly better?
Russia has been destabilizing Ukraine since 2004. It stepped it up once the people in Ukraine decided they want a better European style of government.
Didn't they get what they wanted? Didn't they get Yushenko for a president? That's as "European style of government as it gets, no? Or do you mean that they need a German ( or an American) for a president?
So what happened there after Yushenko was elected?
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What can Russia do about Ukraine now? Attack the Donbas (the only area with pro Russians)? How is that going to work out long term. The rest of Ukraine is growing and the east is declining behind Putin's new iron curtain. Look at Kiev, there is a construction boom. Lots of people living there from Donetsk. Hmmm interesting isn't it? Why wouldn't they flee to Russia where it is supposedly better?
They already did, about 2 million of them.
( By the way it's not only Eastern Ukrainians that come to Russia in search of jobs as far as I know.)
Please. Kiev has been growing every since I can remember. The 2 times I was there I was not impressed though. Juat because some parts of the city look new and expensive it doesn't mean the ordinary people are doing fine too. When me and my wife went there in 2006 we rented an apartment. The trash cans at this complex WERE BURIED because the trash ahd not been collected by the authorities. There were dead cats and dogs on the street and a lot of rats. Thhe Kiev metro is to say the least, decrepit. Utterly filthy compared to moscows. Hell, in Minsk you could eat off the streets and the stray cats were well scrubbed by some brave soul too. Kiev looked fine in the touristy parts of town, outside of that it was bad.
I got the impression that people were kind of desperate and demoralized unlike Belarus where people were more friendly and vibrant and happier in general. Moscow was like any other big bustling city. Other Russian cities were clean and vibrant and the people curious and friendly and wilder in nature. I saw none of that in Kiev, Zhitomir or Kharkhov. Its been years since I've been there but I doubt it's changed much.
You need to keep in mind you're dealing with people who are not in ignorance of that part of the world.
Right.
For example I still can't believe that something like that might happen in supposedly civilized country - the US.
I thought it's something that only savage Russians are capable of.
Right.
For example I still can't believe that something like that might happen in supposedly civilized country - the US.
I thought it's something that only savage Russians are capable of.
Didn't they get what they wanted? Didn't they get Yushenko for a president? That's as "European style of government as it gets, no? Or do you mean that they need a German ( or an American) for a president?
So what happened there after Yushenko was elected?
They already did, about 2 million of them.
( By the way it's not only Eastern Ukrainians that come to Russia in search of jobs as far as I know.)
Quick note, its not the political party that represented Europe to them, it was the changes forced by the EAA that they wanted. Ukraine is being changed by the new EU rules and the government is less corrupt through everyday life. Its no longer a bribe to get anything done system. Gas and procurement is no longer a black box of theft from the government. You don't have to bribe someone to get a passport for example. Still a long ways to go, but the EAA just finally came in effect 2 weeks ago. In Russia its still a game of paying bribes to get a tourist invitation and register.
Yes I have Eastern Ukrainian family members who used to go to Russia for jobs until this year. Now they are getting networks in Eruope who hook them up with gigs. Still a language barrier though.
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Originally Posted by Scrat335
Please. Kiev has been growing every since I can remember. The 2 times I was there I was not impressed though. Juat because some parts of the city look new and expensive it doesn't mean the ordinary people are doing fine too. When me and my wife went there in 2006 we rented an apartment. The trash cans at this complex WERE BURIED because the trash ahd not been collected by the authorities. There were dead cats and dogs on the street and a lot of rats. Thhe Kiev metro is to say the least, decrepit. Utterly filthy compared to moscows. Hell, in Minsk you could eat off the streets and the stray cats were well scrubbed by some brave soul too. Kiev looked fine in the touristy parts of town, outside of that it was bad.
I got the impression that people were kind of desperate and demoralized unlike Belarus where people were more friendly and vibrant and happier in general. Moscow was like any other big bustling city. Other Russian cities were clean and vibrant and the people curious and friendly and wilder in nature. I saw none of that in Kiev, Zhitomir or Kharkhov. Its been years since I've been there but I doubt it's changed much.
You need to keep in mind you're dealing with people who are not in ignorance of that part of the world.
Kiev was a dump in 2006. Its been 11 years... I was in Tver in 2007 and that was the opposite of what you described to me.
It's not "shame to Russia," it's shame to the US and whoever else was sponsoring the "freedom fighters" in Chechnya. What an irony, since today is 9/11.
P.S. Yiri Shevchuk is a very gifted musician - he is the ultimate voice of those times, and of that generation that took the brunt of the nineties. (Well he and probably Victor Tzoi.)
It's not "shame to Russia," it's shame to the US and whoever else was sponsoring the "freedom fighters" in Chechnya. What an irony, since today is 9/11.
P.S. Yiri Shevchuk is a very gifted musician - he is the ultimate voice of those times, and of that generation that took the brunt of the nineties. (Well he and probably Victor Tzoi.)
I'm also struggling to understand how that's a shame to Russia. Chechen rebels needed to be put down or the whole country might have erupted into civil war. There is no way however that the US was supporting the Chechen cause. Don't pin that on us...We only got involved enough to say that murdering civilians was a bad thing.
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