Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Russia might see history, but history is in the past. The rest of the world lives in the present and looking at the future.
The past contains many answers to a questions of the present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94
Russia recognized Ukraine and agreed to respect its borders and sovereignty some 30 years ago.
Yes, but NATO has upset the balance. And every day world comes closer to nuclear war. Where will the F-16 be based? In Poland or Romania? What will happen if Russia launches a missile attack on an airports? And what are the next steps to help? F-35 and aircraft carriers in the Black Sea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94
A whole generation has grown up outside of the Soviet Union and have a strong Ukrainian identity and couldn’t care less what people are seeing in Moscow and other Russian cities. Yes many Ukrainians speak Russian but that doesn’t make them any less Ukrainian, just like most Irish people speak English but it doesn’t make them any less Irish.
Yes, but the problem with Ukraine was that it was a 2-national country. Otherwise, Russia would not have been able to start a civil war, tens of thousands of Ukrainians would not have fought on the side of Russians, and millions of Ukrainian refugees would not have come to Russia. But if someone really wants to create a nation state in Ukraine, then it is a very good plan:
1. Bring nationalists to power with a help of a military coup (they cannot legitimately be elected, because the Southeast will not support them).
2. Start banning everything Russian, brutally suppress those who are dissatisfied (perpetrators of the murders cannot be punished even 9 years after the tragedy).
3. Start a war with Russia so that pro-Russian Ukrainians leave the country, and everyone else begins to hate Russia.
If you want to make a single Ukrainian nation, then this is a good plan. But there are two problems:
- hundreds of thousands of dead and millions of refugees;
- cultural void after the removal of Russian culture from Ukrainian society (Ukraine and Russia had a common cultural space for 300 years) will be filled with all sorts of nonsense, including greetings "from heart to the sun" (for exemple, from 0:14 on the video):
But it seems that these problems are not a problem for authors of this plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94
And yes Russia developed Novorossiya aka New Russia, just like England developed New England and France developed New France and Spain developed New Spain, but now these areas have been decolonized and the founding countries no longer lay any claim to them. They are now governed by local people, and now Ukrainians are governing themselves. Hopefully after this war ends Russia will come to realize this. It also took the British 30 years after loosing the 13 colonies and the war of 1812 to finally admit to themselves that the US was a sovereign nation.
So you agree to give back Königsberg to Germany, Kuril Island to Japan, Karelia to Finlandia and so on?
No. Germany (Europe) is again at war against Russia, so there can be no question of any return of the territory. Stalin very wisely negotiated this territory for the deployment of weapons.
Remember, though, that NATO declined to consider the matter of Ukraine and Georgia applying for membership. NATO (unlike several US Presidents) in its wisdom knew membership for those two would be too much of a political hot potato. And look--they were right!
Let the EU deal with them, their poverty, their corruption, etc. Frankly, I'd be surprised if the EU accepted either of them, but as you said at the end of your post:
The past contains many answers to a questions of the present.
I agree, but the past doesn't overwrite the present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov
Yes, but NATO has upset the balance. And every day world comes closer to nuclear war. Where will the F-16 be based? In Poland or Romania? What will happen if Russia launches a missile attack on an airports? And what are the next steps to help? F-35 and aircraft carriers in the Black Sea?
The balance was already lost when the Soviet Union capitulated. China is now the number 2 power not Russia. And why would Russia launch a missile attack on a (NATO) airport? NATO countries can do whatever they want on their borders, just like Russia can do whatever they want within their borders. Also isn't Russia a nuclear power, why would NATO ever attack Russia? Just look at North Korea they are armed to the teeth and are not being attacked, nor does North Korea need to attack South Korea to protect themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov
Yes, but the problem with Ukraine was that it was a 2-national country. Otherwise, Russia would not have been able to start a civil war, tens of thousands of Ukrainians would not have fought on the side of Russians, and millions of Ukrainian refugees would not have come to Russia. But if someone really wants to create a nation state in Ukraine, then it is a very good plan:
1. Bring nationalists to power with a help of a military coup (they cannot legitimately be elected, because the Southeast will not support them).
2. Start banning everything Russian, brutally suppress those who are dissatisfied (perpetrators of the murders cannot be punished even 9 years after the tragedy).
3. Start a war with Russia so that pro-Russian Ukrainians leave the country, and everyone else begins to hate Russia.
If you want to make a single Ukrainian nation, then this is a good plan. But there are two problems:
- hundreds of thousands of dead and millions of refugees;
- cultural void after the removal of Russian culture from Ukrainian society (Ukraine and Russia had a common cultural space for 300 years) will be filled with all sorts of nonsense, including greetings "from heart to the sun" (for exemple, from 0:14 on the video):
But it seems that these problems are not a problem for authors of this plan.
Everything is possible.
I do not deny that there are certain Ukrainians who have become radicalized in the last few decades to make a pure Ukraine, but I don't think trying a secessionist movement was the right call. They should've remained in the country and pushed back in the political arena, and the "civil war" wouldn't even have happened if Russia didn't orchestrate the "civil war". Also, they were overreacting anyway since people were and still are speaking Russian in Ukraine. And if the issue was that horrible, they could just move across the border to Russia, just like many ethnic Russians ended up doing after the war started in 2014. My main point is that Russia chose to escalate the conflict and it could've been avoided and handled in a less confrontational manner. Ireland and Britain also had a contentious relationship during the "troubles" over the status of Northern Ireland from the late 1960s to 1998, 3,532 people died during that conflict plus another 50,000 were injured, yet neither country escalated to a full on war. However, Russia decided to put it's foot down and now hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians are dead and that blood lies on Russia's hand for mishandling the situation and allowing so much hate to brew up between these "brotherly" nations.
The past contains many answers to a questions of the present.
Yes, but NATO has upset the balance. And every day world comes closer to nuclear war. Where will the F-16 be based? In Poland or Romania? What will happen if Russia launches a missile attack on an airports? And what are the next steps to help? F-35 and aircraft carriers in the Black Sea?
Yes, but the problem with Ukraine was that it was a 2-national country. Otherwise, Russia would not have been able to start a civil war, tens of thousands of Ukrainians would not have fought on the side of Russians, and millions of Ukrainian refugees would not have come to Russia. But if someone really wants to create a nation state in Ukraine, then it is a very good plan:
1. Bring nationalists to power with a help of a military coup (they cannot legitimately be elected, because the Southeast will not support them).
2. Start banning everything Russian, brutally suppress those who are dissatisfied (perpetrators of the murders cannot be punished even 9 years after the tragedy).
3. Start a war with Russia so that pro-Russian Ukrainians leave the country, and everyone else begins to hate Russia.
If you want to make a single Ukrainian nation, then this is a good plan. But there are two problems:
- hundreds of thousands of dead and millions of refugees;
- cultural void after the removal of Russian culture from Ukrainian society (Ukraine and Russia had a common cultural space for 300 years) will be filled with all sorts of nonsense, including greetings "from heart to the sun" (for exemple, from 0:14 on the video):
But it seems that these problems are not a problem for authors of this plan.
Everything is possible.
Russia has militarily invaded a foreign country, there is NO excuse, Ukraine is NOT Russia's business. That's it, end of story. NO country has the right to invade other peoples territory, whether it's Russia, the US, or Outer Mongolia!
Ukraine is free to join or leave any damn organisation it chooses, its no other countries business! There is NO excuse for invading other peoples territory, NONE until Russia p*sses off back to its own side of the border it WILL continue to be the pariah of the world! Putin is simply a 21st Century Hitler.
Pariah of who?? Of the US and a bunch of its vassals. The world is a BIG place my friend....
You Brits should worry more about the condition of your sorry excuse of a country rather than still trying to play with the adults in the room.
Fix your own economic issues before thinking about war with Russia and China....what happen when you finally get spanked?? Go cry to your American daddy??
Last edited by saturno_v; 05-23-2023 at 04:41 PM..
I do not deny that there are certain Ukrainians who have become radicalized in the last few decades to make a pure Ukraine, but I don't think trying a secessionist movement was the right call. They should've remained in the country and pushed back in the political arena, and the "civil war" wouldn't even have happened if Russia didn't orchestrate the "civil war".
The political solution was agreed..it was called the Minsk Agreement under the UN supervision with European powers as guarantors. Ukraine refused to implement it and so now it pays the consequences.
I agree, but the past doesn't overwrite the present.
The balance was already lost when the Soviet Union capitulated. China is now the number 2 power not Russia. And why would Russia launch a missile attack on a (NATO) airport? NATO countries can do whatever they want on their borders, just like Russia can do whatever they want within their borders. Also isn't Russia a nuclear power, why would NATO ever attack Russia? Just look at North Korea they are armed to the teeth and are not being attacked, nor does North Korea need to attack South Korea to protect themselves.
The Soviet Union did not "capitulate", it dissolved....and it was promised (declassified documents did reveal it, contrary to popular belief) that, in exchange for giving the permission to reunite the Germans, NATO would not have moved east. this is history, period.
If these F-16 will take off from NATO bases, Russia has the right to hit them.
The Soviet Union did not "capitulate", it dissolved....and it was promised (declassified documents did reveal it, contrary to popular belief) that, in exchange for giving the permission to reunite the Germans, NATO would not have moved east. this is history, period.
If these F-16 will take off from NATO bases, Russia has the right to hit them.
Why would they take off from NATO bases to hit Russia? I get the feeling that Russia's supporters actually want NATO to take such a foolish action.
The Soviet Union did not "capitulate", it dissolved....and it was promised (declassified documents did reveal it, contrary to popular belief) that, in exchange for giving the permission to reunite the Germans, NATO would not have moved east. this is history, period.
If these F-16 will take off from NATO bases, Russia has the right to hit them.
Those Soviet republics forced into ****ing Soviet union are independent countries. With history going back many centuries before Russia was ever formed. With culture to spare and then some.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
