Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Under international law yes they are equal, otherwise Russia doesn’t have any right to make complaints when the US over steps it’s boundaries, because by your logic US is superior to Russia and Russia should just roll over. And no, those lands no longer pertain to Russia the moment that Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. Ukraine plus Belarus and Kazakstan agreed to give up their nuclear weapons and in return the nuclear powers including Russia would provide assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of those countries. By that treaty Russia is unfortunately obliged to quash the Donbas rebellion since they are threatening the territorial integrity of Ukraine circa 1994. Russia loves to complain about how the US/NATO broke their agreements regarding NATO expansion among other things, yet Russia has no problems with breaking their own treaties when it serves their own interests.
And yes I get the whole shpeel that those were Russian lands that were gifted to Ukraine and yadayadayada, well I don’t know about you, but generally people don’t take back gifts unless the receiver no longer wants it. Just imagine how ridiculous it would be if France demanded the US to return the Statue of Liberty. There are no take backs in gift giving.
NATO aggressive expansion changed things, treaties between states are meant to be broken unfortunately, history proves that. Nobody says that Russia is an innocent saint, simply there are no saints, in the West or otherwise. In Crimea, at least, there was a popular referendum and that was a result of an illegal coup based on false pretences (accepted by the "rule-based" West) and in Donbass Russia official position so far is for the region to remain part of Ukraine.
well to be fair and objectively speaking that is what Russia did to Ukraine. You really going to tell me that Russia would be okay if there was a Ukrainian reawakening in the Kuban and they voted to join Ukraine? Russia after all fought tooth and nail to regain control of Chechnya and the northern Caucuses.
My family is from Crimea and I think the majority wanted to join Russia, but I also can acknowledge that Ukraine has legitimate reasons to feel salty particularly post 2014 and ultimately when cooler heads prevail I think Russia should compensate Ukraine in one form or another.
I agree on compensating Ukraine when the lunatics in Kiev will be actually willing to be reasonable.
I agree on compensating Ukraine when the lunatics in Kiev will be actually willing to be reasonable.
I suppose the compensation should be paid by the countries that supported and sponsored the coup?
The same 2014, which led to such a deplorable result.
Or do the gentlemen want someone else to pay their bills again: ? )))
It looks more like what we call an Elk here in America with the white rump. I know there are Elk in northern China but they are not brown but a grey or dark grey.
well to be fair and objectively speaking that is what Russia did to Ukraine. You really going to tell me that Russia would be okay if there was a Ukrainian reawakening in the Kuban and they voted to join Ukraine? Russia after all fought tooth and nail to regain control of Chechnya and the northern Caucuses.
My family is from Crimea and I think the majority wanted to join Russia, but I also can acknowledge that Ukraine has legitimate reasons to feel salty particularly post 2014 and ultimately when cooler heads prevail I think Russia should compensate Ukraine in one form or another.
I disagree. Ukraine, as it is now is a possible existential threat to Russia and as a matter of fact the mentality of the people in charge in my book make it a limited threat. If it goes any further I believe it will be a greater threat.
Make no mistake. The goal of the west (specifically America) in the short term is to take Russia as we know it down. After that to dominate this entire globe. Did you ever hear of "Manifest Destiny"? Look into it. Because of this stance if I were Putin Ukraine as we know it today would not exist. If you're going to fight then you fight on your terms, not theirs. You act, not react and there's no such thing as a fair fight which you want to avoid anyway.
Maybe it's better that Putin and his people are in charge and not me. Russia is playing the long game and I believe possibly, all but defintely, a different Ukraine is in the future. One not an obedient dog of the west.
I disagree. Ukraine, as it is now is a possible existential threat to Russia and as a matter of fact the mentality of the people in charge in my book make it a limited threat. If it goes any further I believe it will be a greater threat.
Make no mistake. The goal of the west (specifically America) in the short term is to take Russia as we know it down. After that to dominate this entire globe. Did you ever hear of "Manifest Destiny"? Look into it. Because of this stance if I were Putin Ukraine as we know it today would not exist. If you're going to fight then you fight on your terms, not theirs. You act, not react and there's no such thing as a fair fight which you want to avoid anyway.
Maybe it's better that Putin and his people are in charge and not me. Russia is playing the long game and I believe possibly, all but defintely, a different Ukraine is in the future. One not an obedient dog of the west.
Yes Ukraine as is, is a threat to Russia, just like Russia is a threat to Ukraine and because of that Ukraine is going to run to the west with their tail between their legs. All I’m saying is that Ukraine has just as much right to look after it’s interests as Russia does. And it has just as much right to feel threatened as Russia does. Maybe I’m naive but I think in the long term it serves in both parties interests to have friendly relations and sort this issue out diplomatically. However with how things unfolded in 2014 I don’t think that will be possible with this generation, but I still think relations can be mended in the future and that should be the ultimate goal. For instance the US and the UK used to be bitter rivals, but now are very friendly.
Under international law yes they are equal, otherwise Russia doesn’t have any right to make complaints when the US over steps it’s boundaries, because by your logic US is superior to Russia and Russia should just roll over. And no, those lands no longer pertain to Russia the moment that Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. Ukraine plus Belarus and Kazakstan agreed to give up their nuclear weapons and in return the nuclear powers including Russia would provide assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of those countries. By that treaty Russia is unfortunately obliged to quash the Donbas rebellion since they are threatening the territorial integrity of Ukraine circa 1994. Russia loves to complain about how the US/NATO broke their agreements regarding NATO expansion among other things, yet Russia has no problems with breaking their own treaties when it serves their own interests.
And yes I get the whole shpeel that those were Russian lands that were gifted to Ukraine and yadayadayada, well I don’t know about you, but generally people don’t take back gifts unless the receiver no longer wants it. Just imagine how ridiculous it would be if France demanded the US to return the Statue of Liberty. There are no take backs in gift giving.
I am not talking about the international laws here Grega, but about different, more profound things that put these two countries in different weight categories, with Ukrainians being totally in denial about it.
For starters of course, there was never such thing as "Ukrainian state" in history, if we don't refer to the Kievan Rus. But since Russia ( or rather the Russian Empire) is the successor of the Kievan Rus, Ukraine was never more than the atavism of the Kievan Rus, the lands that remained on the outskirts of the Russian Empire, and people that couldn't stand on their own, leave alone creating any kind of their own state.
In fact, once these people realized that they were going to be decimated by the Catholic Poland, they simply blackmailed Russian tzar to admit them into Russian state ( where they rightfully belonged to begin with.)
Were they oppressed by the Russian throne after that? I am sure they were, but so were the Russian serfs/peasants as well. And with that, the fact remains; no matter how much these people of the western-most territories of the Russian Empire (i.e. "ukrainians") were claiming their "free spirited nature" and threatening to go their "separate way," the fact remains they couldn't even survive on their own as independent group of people, leave alone creating their own state.
All these Odessas, industrial base of the Eastern Ukraine - with other words, things that modern Ukraine is trying to claim as its own "achievement," and "essentially Ukrainian," - in reality it's all Russian Empire and ITS achievements, through and through.
Same goes to the times of the Soviet Union; the newly organized "Ukrainian Republic" was doing well, as long as the major *think tank,* the force organizing and supporting it, was still in Moscow, as back in Imperial times.
Once *Ukraine* was left alone thirty years ago, to fend for itself, it didn't prosper away from Russia, as some were hoping for.
So Ukrainians can invent the alternative history all they want.
They can claim that "Moscovites" stole Ukrainian identity and the historic name of their country, they can claim that "Rus" is really Ukraine, and Russia is some "unrelated mongolian state," they can invent the myth of their "great language" not related to Russian, they can huff and puff all they want, and point at the "international laws," that make Ukraine as a country "equal to Russia," yet the fact remains.
These two countries are in two completely different weight categories on a number of parameters, but first of all - the ability to stand on its own as a state.
And when Ukrainian nationalists stomp their feet like a toddler, demanding the same treatment as an adult in international field, they don't comprehend apparently how far the picture that they created in their own head differs from the real situation.
Yes Ukraine as is, is a threat to Russia, just like Russia is a threat to Ukraine and because of that Ukraine is going to run to the west with their tail between their legs. All I’m saying is that Ukraine has just as much right to look after it’s interests as Russia does. And it has just as much right to feel threatened as Russia does. Maybe I’m naive but I think in the long term it serves in both parties interests to have friendly relations and sort this issue out diplomatically. However with how things unfolded in 2014 I don’t think that will be possible with this generation, but I still think relations can be mended in the future and that should be the ultimate goal. For instance the US and the UK used to be bitter rivals, but now are very friendly.
Putin has several times predicted that eventually Ukraine will be back in the Russian sphere of influence...we will (I hope I live long enough) see
Yes Ukraine as is, is a threat to Russia, just like Russia is a threat to Ukraine and because of that Ukraine is going to run to the west with their tail between their legs. All I’m saying is that Ukraine has just as much right to look after it’s interests as Russia does. And it has just as much right to feel threatened as Russia does. Maybe I’m naive but I think in the long term it serves in both parties interests to have friendly relations and sort this issue out diplomatically. However with how things unfolded in 2014 I don’t think that will be possible with this generation, but I still think relations can be mended in the future and that should be the ultimate goal. For instance the US and the UK used to be bitter rivals, but now are very friendly.
I don't think the current Ukrainian government has any right to exist. The 2014 coup happened because the powers in opposition knew they could not win the coming election. It was not an ELECTION in 2014, it was the overthrow of the Yanukovich government.
The current Ukrainian government is illegitimate, Ukraine is simply a pawn. Were it otherwise Ukraine and Russia relations would be different. I would not use Britain and the US as a standard, great nations do as they will, lesser nations do as they must. Things will not change soon, Russia has always been under threat and it seems that they will always be under threat. It's best for her to minimize threats in the face of the inevitable.
Last edited by Scrat335; 05-22-2021 at 09:03 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
