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Old 05-04-2013, 12:21 PM
 
298 posts, read 333,079 times
Reputation: 121

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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamatomic View Post
OP: All I can say, is that if you have such belief and conviction in your idea you shouldn't need to defend it in an online public forum. If it's such a fabulous idea, you should approach your local school district with it and see what they think.

Personally, I don't believe in the approach you wish to take for numerous reasons which others have already mentioned on here.

Best of luck to you and don't quit your day job just yet.

Well I was sort of using an online forum as a means of "peer review" to help identify any weak points in the idea and help improve it.

I know that I will likely face some criticism, so I want to be well prepared to answer any questions that people might have about it.

Could you summarize all the reasons against my approach in a list?


I feel like many people have not made any actual points other than "It won't work" and "You don't get it" but those aren't actual reasons.

 
Old 05-04-2013, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,593,150 times
Reputation: 53073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat_the_Streak_MLB View Post
But I don't think the average teacher cares that much, nor does the average set of parents.
From a youth outreach worker and teacher perspective, I don't agree that this point of view is accurate, but we all have our opinions. Mine is that, among other things, you seem to have a bit of a savior complex going on (common to people who are just scratching the surface of working with teens), and consider yourself to be some type of innovator who is trying groundbreaking approaches that have never been attempted before by people attempting to relate to youth. This intensity can very easily become misplaced. The fact that you defensively counter every single valid critique of problems with your approach shows that you aren't in a very realistic headspace to work effectively with teens and teen social issues. You also exhibit an arrogance when others point out areas that are problematic in your approach that has no place in youth outreach.

The blanket statements about "x population just doesn't care" show your immature approach. You're very "us vs. them," which is something that hinders teens, as well. If you're going to reinforce that perception, you're not helping anyone.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,593,150 times
Reputation: 53073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat_the_Streak_MLB View Post
I feel like many people have not made any actual points other than "It won't work" and "You don't get it" but those aren't actual reasons.
No, actually quite a few people have made very salient points, and offered insight to their reasoning. You have simply chosen to discount and ignore because you don't agree.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 01:12 PM
 
298 posts, read 333,079 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
From a youth outreach worker and teacher perspective, I don't agree that this point of view is accurate, but we all have our opinions. Mine is that, among other things, you seem to have a bit of a savior complex going on (common to people who are just scratching the surface of working with teens), and consider yourself to be some type of innovator who is trying groundbreaking approaches that have never been attempted before by people attempting to relate to youth. This intensity can very easily become misplaced. The fact that you defensively counter every single valid critique of problems with your approach shows that you aren't in a very realistic headspace to work effectively with teens and teen social issues. You also exhibit an arrogance when others point out areas that are problematic in your approach that has no place in youth outreach.

The blanket statements about "x population just doesn't care" show your immature approach. You're very "us vs. them," which is something that hinders teens, as well. If you're going to reinforce that perception, you're not helping anyone.

I agree that maybe 1/4 of parents and 1/10 of teachers really care, but that's not the average parent/teacher. There is quite an overwhelming majority that couldn't give a damn.

Well isn't it natural to counter every critique to try and improve the idea? Most of them haven't been valid, but are basically, "The research says you can't!" (Even though the research hasn't worked.)

How could ANYTHING have no place in outreach?

I'm not us vs them with regard to them in relation to me. I just know that most don't care, so it's foolish to make the kids think that the adults care, when most of them don't.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,466,514 times
Reputation: 41122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat_the_Streak_MLB View Post
I agree that maybe 1/4 of parents and 1/10 of teachers really care, but that's not the average parent/teacher. There is quite an overwhelming majority that couldn't give a damn.

Well isn't it natural to counter every critique to try and improve the idea? Most of them haven't been valid, but are basically, "The research says you can't!" (Even though the research hasn't worked.)

How could ANYTHING have no place in outreach?

I'm not us vs them with regard to them in relation to me. I just know that most don't care, so it's foolish to make the kids think that the adults care, when most of them don't.
\

Source?
 
Old 05-04-2013, 01:13 PM
 
298 posts, read 333,079 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
No, actually quite a few people have made very salient points, and offered insight to their reasoning. You have simply chosen to discount and ignore because you don't agree.
Such as?
 
Old 05-04-2013, 01:17 PM
 
Location: So. of Rosarito, Baja, Mexico
6,987 posts, read 21,933,822 times
Reputation: 7007
Having raised 7 children (4 boys,3 girls) have experienced the Bully route.

Told my boys to hold back on any retaliation when being provoked via words.

If pushed or punched they had my permission to leave four knuckles in the persons mouth..... also said I would be at the head office to defend their actions. Thus was in middle school or at High School level.......NO bullying.

The US Govmt has been threatened many times VIA words and we always reacted with force when attacked.....same difference.

"Sticks and Stones may break my bones but Names will never Hurt me"
 
Old 05-04-2013, 02:04 PM
 
298 posts, read 333,079 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
\

Source?
lol, there can't be a source for stuff like this, because every adult will selfishly pretend they do care, even if they say such things as "If I'm not getting paid extra, it doesn't matter to me." and "It's easier for me to do things the way it is now."
 
Old 05-04-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,466,514 times
Reputation: 41122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat_the_Streak_MLB View Post
lol, there can't be a source for stuff like this, because every adult will selfishly pretend they do care, even if they say such things as "If I'm not getting paid extra, it doesn't matter to me." and "It's easier for me to do things the way it is now."
Then don't make up statistics like "1 in 4" or "1 in 10". They are meaningless and based on nothing more than your feelings. Again, you want your ideas to be treated professionally but you don't want to be held to professional standards.


You clearly identify still as a teen with an "us" vs "them" mentality toward adults - especially ones in postitions of authority.

Your examples actually tend to the "blame the victim" philosophy. You plan to keep notes and explain to the victim why exactly he/she is being bullied - to help them to understand (and dismiss) rather than to make inroads to actually prevent and not tolerate harmful behavior. What you suggest sounds more like something that could be called "Mean Girl Liaison"....

You don't accept professional boundries. Or indeed the idea of professionalism in the work place.

You don't understand the importance of avoiding the appearance of impropriety as well as impropriety itself.

As far as we know, you have no training in psychology, mental health, education or the like.

Many posters have clearly posted these reasons and more. You don't want to hear it.

Last edited by maciesmom; 05-04-2013 at 02:39 PM..
 
Old 05-04-2013, 03:07 PM
 
298 posts, read 333,079 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
Then don't make up statistics like "1 in 4" or "1 in 10". They are meaningless and based on nothing more than your feelings. Again, you want your ideas to be treated professionally but you don't want to be held to professional standards.


You clearly identify still as a teen with an "us" vs "them" mentality toward adults - especially ones in postitions of authority.

Your examples actually tend to the "blame the victim" philosophy. You plan to keep notes and explain to the victim why exactly he/she is being bullied - to help them to understand (and dismiss) rather than to make inroads to actually prevent and not tolerate harmful behavior. What you suggest sounds more like something that could be called "Mean Girl Liaison"....

You don't accept professional boundries. Or indeed the idea of professionalism in the work place.

You don't understand the importance of avoiding the appearance of impropriety as well as impropriety itself.

As far as we know, you have no training in psychology, mental health, education or the like.

Many posters have clearly posted these reasons and more. You don't want to hear it.


1) I just mean there's no research out there that could remove the bias in someone evaluating themselves.

But you see tons and tons of news stories (again biased, but at least increases the sample size) covering the fact that most teachers don't care about their students.

Also, if all teachers DID care, we wouldn't have these problems, so the very existence of them is also predictive of most people not giving a damn.


2) I look at an us VS them mentality between people who care and people who don't. I understand there are teens who don't care as well, but we aren't supposed to expect them to care yet, so that isn't as much of an issue.

And most adults also have an us VS them mentality too, so the situation is a constant and just cancels out.


3) There's nothing wrong with blaming the victim though. I've never understood why adults think the victim should be immune to criticism. And then we wonder why kids always try to pretend to be the victim!

If the victim understands why he/she is being bullied, then they can take action to stop it. If they don't understand, even if they want to improve themselves, they can't.

Right when you say "prevent and not tolerate harmful behavior," I can tell that you aren't thinking practically. At one point, do you think you can ever have 100% control over every action a kid does? Would an acceptable punishment for bullying be expulsion for you? And remove all freedom whatsoever?


4) The idea of being professional is a novel one, but the word "professional" has been hijacked by the PC people long ago. Being professional should mean being an expert in what you do. It shouldn't mean concealing your own life to present a generic, cookie-cutter work image. There's nothing useful about that. I understand it can create mediocre employees out of otherwise bad ones, but an outstanding person shouldn't be hamstrung by such a useless image. It would be like preventing a skilled author from breaking conventional poetic form. No one would ever support that. But, for some reason, here you are essentially saying that the skilled author should face such required constraints.

You bring up the idea of professional boundaries and professionalism in the work place as if it is an ironclad law that should be enforced at all times. I understand it helps some people, but you don't even defend why it is so essential?

When I ask why a person could be an expert and not professional in the modern sense, you just ignore the question and pretend I didn't ask.


5) I understand that it isn't desirable to "look bad," but essentially what you are advocating is going along with everyone else just so that people won't complain!

That's crazy! With that logic, the kids should just go along with the bullying because it is accepted that it occurs anyway. You wouldn't endorse that, would you?

So why should we endorse it in your example?


6) I worked in summer camps during college years, but I have no formal training. However, much of my salary would come outside of the school environment itself, so I think that is a fair trade-off. I'd only expect a smallish base salary to cover expenses. (For example, in order to keep track of as much as I can, I'd want to hold little bonding breakfasts/dinners on weekends for the kids in fancy restaurants to help encourage them to behave better, but I wouldn't want to have to cover the cost of 8 upscale dinners on my own each week. I'd view the school based salary as more of a stipend to keep the experiment feasible. The real payoff is 15-20 years out where I increase my earnings power exponentially, which would be directly proportional to how well I helped my students mature.)


7) I think modern psychology is what's wrong with our approaches, so why would I want to expose myself more to its useless ideas? I did take the basic 201 and 202 classes though, since they were required for my major.

I think modern psychology is useless for 2 reasons:

a) It holds a person hostage to his demographic group. A 13-year old could be the most amazing person ever, but in your eyes, he/she is still just a child and has no capacity to make decisions. But a 35-year old could be a serial killer and is still the better person, simply for having existed longer.

b) It values feelings over results. For example, the poster in this thread concealed what she really thought because she didn't want to seem "rude." That's crazy! Truth should ALWAYS be valued over everything else.


8) You claim there are more reasons than just those seven.

What other reasons are there?


9) I always want to hear it.

Better for me to hear it now and prepare for a response than be blindsided during my application process.
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