Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I guess this is OK to post here since I am basically coming at this as an investor.
I'm not an expert at this and only know what is reported but it looks like the Greeks are basically asking the rest of Europe and by extension, even the U.S., to bail them financially out because they are not only so selfish but also feel entitled to be bailed out by other countries to support their lazy lifestyle.
Am I being too harsh here?
Is there more to this?
Will I as a U.S. bondholder and investor be affected by this madness?
The bail out is happening because Greece borrowed heavily in the good years and cannot pay the money back.
But the bail out is not intended to reward the Greeks for their indolence. It is much more about protecting European (and US) banks and about protecting the political integrity of the Euro zone. The Greeks are actually benefiting from their ability to mess up the Eurozone.
Because the alternative, for Greece, to the bail out, even with the austerity conditions, is not any better. They really are between a rock and a hard place. Sure, they can refuse the bail out and default. But then nobody will lend them any money and the level of austerity that will provoke is likely to be greater than that being asked of them now.
The Greeks spawn from eastern Orthodoxy - They really don't believe in this Catholic stuff if you slave away all your life keeping the rich rich...That you will get your reward in heaven...That you get paradise when you are dead...There has never been a report back from the other side - from the dead.
The Greeks want their paradise now...and why not? If they can rebel against their masters and get away with having a little heaven on earth - more power to them...Let Germany pay - they got off the hook much to early as far as what took place back in 1939...They destroyed all of Europe. The UE is Hitlers belated dream come true. National Socialism run by an elite bunch of girly parasites.
If I had my way I would get the Germans to pay for the next couple of generations. The Greeks have the right idea - what is the purpose to life if you have to work to keep that 1% that rule the roost living like gods on earth?
Greece was the begining of real civilization - Democracy! They also were the creators of mans first great works of art...If it were not for this civilization Rome would look like old soviet Russian. I would say that the decendants of the great masters of the worlds best system of living have earned their stripes...Let the Greeks relax...they earned it. As for the rest of us that resent anyone that enjoys their life and does not grasp the real concept of quality of life - TO BAD? We expect the clever Greeks to be dragged down to our level...I hope that Greece continues to be the lazy bastards that refuse to bow down to the rest of Europe and their "economy". What good does this "economy" do other than ensure that we work till we drop. More power to the Greeks pass over that lamb chop after I have my fourth shot of Uzo.
Why should the present-day Germans continue to be punished for what the generation of their parents and grandparents did? Pretty much everyone who had any responsibility for the evils of Nazism is now dead. Even the kids who fought in the German army at age 14 in 1945 because they were running out of manpower would now be 80 years old, and for sure they cannot be held responsible for anything. Your irrational post is just dripping with resentment and hatred. I don't know of a more blatant entitlement mentality than that displayed in your post. How is it you figure because people want something, they should have it? Suppose all of us, in every country, decide we deserve to retire at 50? Who will pay for that? How is it that the Greeks have "earned it" as you put it? The glories of classical Greece have absolutely nothing to do with the present discussion. And how is it of benefit to the rich that we work to put food on the table and a roof over our heads? That is the most basic reality of existence, that people work to provide for themselves and their families. There is no free lunch; if you are eating a "free" lunch, it's because someone else has paid for it. Your post is a series of non-sequiturs.
Yes, they are. They listened to Keynesian economists who said that they could have retirement at age 55 and a government that sucked up 55% of the GDP. They believed that this could go on forever and not have a reckoning.
They voted to going the EU despite the well-advertised proviso that they would have to conform to EU standards of governance and economics. They ignored all the warnings and are now shocked, shocked to learn that the EU actually meant business. Of course, Italy and Spain aren't that far behind. The IMF just sent a delegate to Rome to discuss their shaky financial position, too.
Now, this is where the uninformed blame the banks. Really? These countries racked up this debt on their own through their long-term policies that encouraged dependence on the state and discouraged private enterprise. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. A shame that we will all be paying for the God awful, short-sighted solutions that were clung to in Athens, Rome, Madrid, Dublin, and Washington.
Why should the present-day Germans continue to be punished for what the generation of their parents and grandparents did? Pretty much everyone who had any responsibility for the evils of Nazism is now dead. Even the kids who fought in the German army at age 14 in 1945 because they were running out of manpower would now be 80 years old, and for sure they cannot be held responsible for anything. Your irrational post is just dripping with resentment and hatred. I don't know of a more blatant entitlement mentality than that displayed in your post. How is it you figure because people want something, they should have it? Suppose all of us, in every country, decide we deserve to retire at 50? Who will pay for that? How is it that the Greeks have "earned it" as you put it? The glories of classical Greece have absolutely nothing to do with the present discussion. And how is it of benefit to the rich that we work to put food on the table and a roof over our heads? That is the most basic reality of existence, that people work to provide for themselves and their families. There is no free lunch; if you are eating a "free" lunch, it's because someone else has paid for it. Your post is a series of non-sequiturs.
This has been going on for years in America with descendents of slaves expecting to be paid for what happened long before any of us were alive.
The way I see it, they are only going to need this financial help again further down the road. It's just a bandaid.
A bail-out without a plan doesn't even rise to the level of "band-aid."
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC
The European Union should sell Greece to China...which is what I wanted to do with California.
That is freaking funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Greece is a democracy, and its national policy is that which is directed by the citizenry in free and fair elections. If the USA doesn't like what they do, we can always go in and do some more nation-building.
You already did...and failed.
You overthrew the democratically elected government in favor of a right-wing military dictatorship which oppressed the people for more than 3 decades.
That is one reason the Greeks have a sense of entitlement: they are owed for the horrors they endured from the hypocritical democracy-spewing serpent called the USA.
When you move the pendulum that far to the right, it swings to the opposite position when you let it go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider
How is it that the Greeks have "earned it" as you put it?
Well, as I said, part of it was because they suffered for decades under a US-backed right-wing puppet dictatorship, which basically did nothing but enrich itself at the expense of the people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider
The glories of classical Greece have absolutely nothing to do with the present discussion.
Uh, I can speak to that.
There is a very strong body of archaeological and DNA evidence that the "Greeks" are not Greeks. They were supplanted by Slavs who starting moving through the Balkans in 2nd Century CE. The Slavs, who were largely sedentary, were displaced by semi-nomadic Goths, Germanics, Turks, Magyars (Huns) and Mongols between the 2nd and 14th Centuries.
Between the 4th Century BCE and the 5th Century CE, most of the Greek Intelligentsia, Wealthy class, Merchant Class and Middle Class left Greece to work as administrators or teach or take advantage of trade opportunities after Philip and Alexander of Macedonia conquered the "known" world. When the Romans subjugated the Greeks, the Romans continued this arrangement, using the Greeks as administrators, managers, civil servants, and other functionaries. There's an IR Theory for this where one uses a "3rd Party" to function as a buffer or intermediary between the conquered/subjugated classes and the ruling/empire class.
Even the Ottomans continued the practice, making the Administrator/Managerial Class one of the greatest exports from Greece.
Greeks were exported to Romania to manage and administrate during both the Roman and Ottoman occupations. We have a special name for such Greeks: gospodari
Anyway, you're right, likening modern Greece to the past would be as stupid as claiming the Arabic Egyptians built the Great Pyramid (while ignoring the fact that Gothic tribes ran Egypt for centuries before the Arabs arrived). Whoever those "Egyptians" were (no one has a clue), they were not Arabs (who at that time had fled to the safety of the Hijazz Mountains or the coastal areas of the Arabian Peninsula as the lush sub-tropical paradise that was the Arabian Peninsula slowly turned into a harsh barren desert-land).
I guess this is OK to post here since I am basically coming at this as an investor.
I'm not an expert at this and only know what is reported but it looks like the Greeks are basically asking the rest of Europe and by extension, even the U.S., to bail them financially out because they are not only so selfish but also feel entitled to be bailed out by other countries to support their lazy lifestyle.
Am I being too harsh here?
Is there more to this?
Will I as a U.S. bondholder and investor be affected by this madness?
Well, I am sorry to say but they are showing the same type of entitlement we Americans are having now demaning the government do so much for us and expecting not to pay much in taxes. Oh, many Americans have this belief that those that have more need to pay for them also. In other words they are asking the rest of the citizens to pay for them just as the greeks are expectin the rest of Europe to do.
I think you are being affected also. You will be demanded by many in our country because they see people as greedy. After all a bondholder is part of the free market system many today are out there protesting against. They see you as such. Also, remember that what Greek is doing will affect Europe and Europe is part of the big global market so it will affect you also. Take care.
i think the germans seriously ought to be paying attention to what is going on:
Anyone wondering why Axel Weber was passed over when picking the next ECB head in exchange for Goldman plant Mario Draghi, only needs to read a piece from Sueddeutsche Zeitung in which the former German central bank head, and future UBS head, confirms he actually does math. As has been said on Zero Hedge since back in July 21, when we actually did the math and realized the EFSF will not work as it will leave Germany footing the bill for all of Europe, Weber in essence said precisely that... but did not stop there. As quoted by Bloomberg, "Former Bundesbank President Axel Weber said the plan to leverage the European Financial Stability Facility increases the likelihood that tax payers have to step in, Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported.
Germany’s public debt would rise to 135 percent of gross domestic product if Italy and Spain were to tap the EFSF financial backstop, the newspaper cited Weber as saying in a speech in Frankfurt.
As the sole guarantor to the EFSF, Germany could end up with a debt of 314 percent of GDP in an extreme case, Weber said (zero hedge)
what are the germans thinking? germany is an export country, and we are in a worldwide recession.
look at this headline:
UK manufacturing shrinks at fastest rate in two years.
how is germany supposed to export their way out of assuming that debt level? it wouldn't be possible, would it?
when does it stop?
Last edited by floridasandy; 11-07-2011 at 04:21 AM..
Why should the present-day Germans continue to be punished for what the generation of their parents and grandparents did? Pretty much everyone who had any responsibility for the evils of Nazism is now dead. Even the kids who fought in the German army at age 14 in 1945 because they were running out of manpower would now be 80 years old, and for sure they cannot be held responsible for anything. Your irrational post is just dripping with resentment and hatred. I don't know of a more blatant entitlement mentality than that displayed in your post. How is it you figure because people want something, they should have it? Suppose all of us, in every country, decide we deserve to retire at 50? Who will pay for that? How is it that the Greeks have "earned it" as you put it? The glories of classical Greece have absolutely nothing to do with the present discussion. And how is it of benefit to the rich that we work to put food on the table and a roof over our heads? That is the most basic reality of existence, that people work to provide for themselves and their families. There is no free lunch; if you are eating a "free" lunch, it's because someone else has paid for it. Your post is a series of non-sequiturs.
Don't know what "non-sequiturs" means...Is that latin or greek or something?
On a historic and personal level..no culture (Germany) should be fully forgiven for the sins of their fathers...They still have the same mentality as did their grand parents...I just don't like the culture much - It might be that both my parents were tormented by this culture...bullet scars and starvation in slave labour camps at the tail end of the war - still mean something to me...I had to grow up with two parents who both suffered post tramatic stress....Germany would do it again if they could - in fact they are doing it again but in a clean and seamingly civil manner.
We forget that some of the wealth that present day Germany has was based on stolen lucre - Austria same thing - I know for a fact that here in Canada we have a car parts company - and one day I asked a wise old man who knows his stuff if the base of the operation was funded with re-circulated Nazi money - He said yes...so in my laymans mind...I have no sympathy for the nation - let them pay - let the Greeks relax and enjoy life.
Don't know what "non-sequiturs" means...Is that latin or greek or something?
On a historic and personal level..no culture (Germany) should be fully forgiven for the sins of their fathers...They still have the same mentality as did their grand parents...I just don't like the culture much - It might be that both my parents were tormented by this culture...bullet scars and starvation in slave labour camps at the tail end of the war - still mean something to me...I had to grow up with two parents who both suffered post tramatic stress....Germany would do it again if they could - in fact they are doing it again but in a clean and seamingly civil manner.
We forget that some of the wealth that present day Germany has was based on stolen lucre - Austria same thing - I know for a fact that here in Canada we have a car parts company - and one day I asked a wise old man who knows his stuff if the base of the operation was funded with re-circulated Nazi money - He said yes...so in my laymans mind...I have no sympathy for the nation - let them pay - let the Greeks relax and enjoy life.
Non sequitur is a Latin expression frequently used in English. It means "it does not follow". That is, the conclusion doesn't logically follow from the evidence or original information.
I can understand that you still have negative feelings about Germans, and I do not criticize those feelings. But I do criticize the desire to punish people who are innocent. I lived in Germany for a year in 1965/1966 and spoke (at the time) fluent German. I do not agree that "Germany would do it again if they could". And what, exactly, is the "it" that you claim they are doing again but in a clean manner? Are they to be condemned that their good work ethic has brought them relative economic prosperity? Any control they have over the Greeks by virtue of being able to give or withhold bailout money cannot be laid at the doorstep of the Germans as some kind of fault or defect. It is the Greeks' fault, brought upon themselves by their own practices and policies over the years.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Non-sequiturs of the most irrational kind
