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The Coyotes average 4,600 fans a game. That is not sustainable.
Phoenix is popular with western Canadian snowbirds. It didn’t work out. Hockey in the desert is a tough sell. I always thought Kings games in the Forum were strange.
A poach will never happen but the Yanks, Sox, you’re Amazins, the Giants in New Haven, Rangers, Celtics, Knicks, Bruins would all be successful in Hartford.
Phoenix is popular with western Canadian snowbirds. It didn’t work out. Hockey in the desert is a tough sell. I always thought Kings games in the Forum were strange.
A poach will never happen but the Yanks, Sox, you’re Amazins, the Giants in New Haven, Rangers, Celtics, Knicks, Bruins would all be successful in Hartford.
None of your second paragraph would do as well in Hartford as where they are. I am sure the new soccer stadium is Queens bound because Cohen brought the Mets into operating like a huge city team.
I expect a new MSG by 2030, though. Again, in a new Manhattan location.
Hartford is doing fairly well with sporadic events, though. This $107m update is nice to see, and appropriate given the types of stuff the city attracts.
The way you feel about Providence is the way I feel about Hartford — I just see minimal appeal. Maybe Providence is more comparable to New Haven than to Hartford, where the contrast between safe, well-kept neighborhoods and crime-ridden ones is stark. Other than downtown, I really don't see a single area of Hartford that is wholly and consistently safe and desirable. West Side is very nice, as long as you're north of Farmington Avenue — the area south of it has some streets that are really rough. Blue Hills has the highest rate of home ownership in the entire city, and most of it is suburban in character and relatively safe, but that area also has Route 187 to contend with, and this street can be VERY rough.
I take it you don’t live in Providence and only go there for entertainment. That gives you a very different view of things there. I will say Brown University and RISD make a big difference there, much like Yale does in New Haven. But if you look beyond that, you have a pretty debilitated city.
I disagree with you about Hartford’s neighborhoods, particularly it’s “west side”. The West End is a beautiful and a solid affluent neighborhood. Parkville is seeing an unbelievable transformation in the past few years with Parkville Market and new apartments. If it continues it will become a highly desirable urban village. Southwest and Behind the Rocks are solid stable well kept neighborhoods as is the South End.
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Originally Posted by MikefromCT
Well, that may be, but that still doesn't change the fact that Hartford has a major uphill battle in terms of fighting crime. For all the talk about how wonderful downtown projects are, the question I'm asking is, what jobs can be created for the people who actually live in the city? Can they open a supermarket or two within city limits, considering that much of the city is a food desert? Can city hall create job opportunities for people with minimal skills? The private sector would do far more to help people than the government ever could. There is a point where even the most utopian of governments can't help you.
I never said Hartford doesn’t have a crime problem but so does Providence. Most cities do. And your other complaints about Hartford could be easily applied to other cities, including Providence. You seem to be overly down on Hartford without acknowledging other cities face the exact same thing.
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Originally Posted by MikefromCT
Well, I don't share your enthusiasm. More than shiny new buildings and development projects, I want to see a change in leadership. I want someone who is going to take a meat axe to all of the mealy-mouthed pacifism with respect to crime and say, "Folks? The adults are in charge now." The last person to come close to that was Mike Peters, and let me tell you, his leadership style is sorely needed right now.
You make me laugh. Remember that Providence is a city that re-elected a convicted felon, Buddy Cianci, its Mayor. How is that good leadership?p
I agree that Mike Peters was great for the city and that Seggara and Perez weren’t. But I think Bronin has done well for the city as well. Who knows what the future will bring. You should note that those shiny new buildings wouldn’t be there if there was no faith in the city’s future. The more important point though is all those new apartments are being filled and there doesn’t appear to be an end to the market for them. This will lead to a truly better city. Jay
I disagree with you about Hartford’s neighborhoods, particularly it’s “west side”. The West End is a beautiful and a solid affluent neighborhood. Parkville is seeing an unbelievable transformation in the past few years with Parkville Market and new apartments. If it continues it will become a highly desirable urban village. Southwest and Behind the Rocks are solid stable well kept neighborhoods as is the South End.
Hartford's West End (which I referred to previously as the West side) is affluent above Farmington Avenue. South of Farmington is a mixed bag, where some of it is less affluent but still well-kept (Clemens Place), but some of the streets in this area are not safe to walk at night (Evergreen Ave, Sisson Ave, etc.) Southwest is a stable, safe neighborhood, so I'll give you that. Behind the Rocks is street-specific — it abuts the Frog Hollow neighborhood which is not a good area, and the closer you get to this neighborhood, the curb appeal disappears, the less safe it gets, and there's no distinction between the two. South End IMO is also street-specific. This area has gone through huge changes in the last few years and crime here has soared on the main thoroughfares, specifically Wethersfield Avenue where shootings seem to be common. I do agree that Parkville has improved as far as new attractions and points of interest, but whether or not the neighborhood on the whole will improve remains to be seen.
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Originally Posted by JayCT
You make me laugh. Remember that Providence is a city that re-elected a convicted felon, Buddy Cianci, its Mayor. How is that good leadership?
And voters in Hartford elected Eddie Perez, a former gang member who ended up going to jail and left the city in tatters. Yet we think that just because this is CT that we're somehow inherently better. That makes ME laugh.
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Originally Posted by JayCT
I agree that Mike Peters was great for the city and that Seggara and Perez weren’t. But I think Bronin has done well for the city as well. Who knows what the future will bring. You should note that those shiny new buildings wouldn’t be there if there was no faith in the city’s future. The more important point though is all those new apartments are being filled and there doesn’t appear to be an end to the market for them. This will lead to a truly better city. Jay
I've met Bronin. He's very nice and he's on the level, but IMO he's been ineffective as a mayor. New shiny new buildings are nice. More companies are expecting people to return to the office, but the question that remains is, what can the city do to attract people to stay within the confines of the city not just to hang out after work, but to live? Other cities in this state have better success with this. For many people, especially those with children, this is not a place where they want to live. I'm not hating on the city, this is just an unfortunate reality at the moment. There may be plans to address this, but in the meantime, most people in the white-collar sector who work downtown would prefer to return to the 'burbs. Rather than say the fault lies with the small geographic size of the city, it would make more sense to make it more attractive to middle-class people.
Hartford's West End (which I referred to previously as the West side) is affluent above Farmington Avenue. South of Farmington is a mixed bag, where some of it is less affluent but still well-kept (Clemens Place), but some of the streets in this area are not safe to walk at night (Evergreen Ave, Sisson Ave, etc.) Southwest is a stable, safe neighborhood, so I'll give you that. Behind the Rocks is street-specific — it abuts the Frog Hollow neighborhood which is not a good area, and the closer you get to this neighborhood, the curb appeal disappears, the less safe it gets, and there's no distinction between the two. South End IMO is also street-specific. This area has gone through huge changes in the last few years and crime here has soared on the main thoroughfares, specifically Wethersfield Avenue where shootings seem to be common. I do agree that Parkville has improved as far as new attractions and points of interest, but whether or not the neighborhood on the whole will improve remains to be seen.
And voters in Hartford elected Eddie Perez, a former gang member who ended up going to jail and left the city in tatters. Yet we think that just because this is CT that we're somehow inherently better. That makes ME laugh.
I've met Bronin. He's very nice and he's on the level, but IMO he's been ineffective as a mayor. New shiny new buildings are nice. More companies are expecting people to return to the office, but the question that remains is, what can the city do to attract people to stay within the confines of the city not just to hang out after work, but to live? Other cities in this state have better success with this. For many people, especially those with children, this is not a place where they want to live. I'm not hating on the city, this is just an unfortunate reality at the moment. There may be plans to address this, but in the meantime, most people in the white-collar sector who work downtown would prefer to return to the 'burbs. Rather than say the fault lies with the small geographic size of the city, it would make more sense to make it more attractive to middle-class people.
We have gone off topic. No city is without problems. Comments were made about how wonderful Providence was but the truth is that’s not true. It has problems as bad as Hartford or any city really. So to stop this debate I’m not saying more. Jay
I never mentioned anything about bringing back a hockey team in any of my posts. I did reference the NCAA men's basketball playoffs though. Love the "Can't Do" attitude that permeates this forum at times when it comes to the idea of a better arena in order to attract more top level attractions.
BTW. The Whalers came very close to selling 12,000 season tickets at the end of their stay in Hartford and I clearly recall that Karmanos would not give them a little extra time to achieve that goal. He had no intention of keeping the team in Hartford from the moment he bought the team and it was evident to anyone that watched how he conducted business with the city and state and also the team.
That issue aside, when the Civic Center opened I remember the Celtics playing a number of games each season and I went to a few in addition to Whalers games. Also remember the AETNA World Cup Tennis match as well. Probably some other events back in the day I have since forgot since I was in High school at the time and had a limited interest in certain attractions that would be playing there including concerts. Barnum and Bailey Circus also played there if I recall.
Simply put, if you think small, you will be small. In the world of business that can sometimes backfire and cause a business to go under. In this case an automotive analogy is appropriate. Putting retreads on the XL Center is leading to a slow continued decline of the facility. Buying a quality new tire (new arena if they can come up with the funding) or at least buying a high quality used tire (additional upgrades such as seating at an additional cost to taxpayers or possible investors) would allow the arena to compete effectively for better events that would bring in more money for the city and state and certainly the shops and bars etc. around downtown.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Hartford there are 2,141,000 people residing. Within a 50 mile radius of downtown there are 3,956,000 people. More than enough people to draw visitors to the arena if it is marketed properly and the right shows and entertainment are brought in.
For comparisons sake:
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Cincinnati there are 1,971,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Pittsburgh there are 2,055,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Kansas City there are 2,014,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Indianapolis there are 1,911,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Milwaukee there are 1,711,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Nashville there are 1,579,000 people residing.
Clearly the population base within a 30 to 50 mile radius of the city exists to tap into for spending at events at a new and improved arena. Bringing in the right events and proper marketing are the key.
Hartford also hosted the 1981 World Figure Skating Championships, which introduced the world to Scott Hamilton. It was a world stage city. It unfortunately has not hosted since.
The lack of development in Hartford is truly perplexing. I drive by and do not even see a crane in the skyline. I'd expect more from the capital city of one of the richest states in the U.S. Coupled with high state income taxes and very high Hartford mill rates, the people should demand a better city.
And it is very surprising that the city or surrounding area does not have a Big 4 professional sports team. As it has been mentioned before, the Hartford/New Haven media market is the largest in the US without a team. Many smaller markets at least have one. Added the fact as it has been mentioned multiple times, CT has one of the highest if not highest incomes per capita and disposal incomes, the people of CT are able to spend. Don't forget ESPN, the world wide leader in sports is right in the area, and NBC Sports are nearby in Stamford. This all makes the opportunity of having a team in the area incredibly lucrative.
The most obvious answer is to bring the Whalers back. Taking the team from Phoenix probably make the most sense at this point. The demand for the Whalers still really seems to be there. I still see people wearing a ton of Whalers apparel. I cannot think of a defunct team that still boast as much apparel as the Whalers. You hardly ever see Boston Braves or Boston Redskins shirts or hats being worn.
And proximity to NYC and Boston should not be a disadvantage or an excuse. Its poor way of thinking that greatly hinders the areas prosperity and future. If anything the proximity should be an advantage as areas to draw from..
A slightly different approach at trying to get people that don't understand the benefits of a new and improved and larger coliseum in Hartford.
Let's look at the airports in this country and BDL. Some years some airports make profits and other years they do not. Largely dependent upon how many people fly of course. Few airports turn a healthy profit every year and many do lose money but are kept open from a local or state government infusion of capital.
BDL is no different. There are years when it turns a profit and other years a loss. I lived in the Hartford area for around 38 years and know full well that was the case even after improvements and upgrades were made to the airport. The airport is kept open despite the losses from time to time because of the importance it has on the life blood of the region. Growing the airport in passenger traffic has not hurt the region and in fact, makes it a more attractive place to fly to and from since it is still small by comparison to Logan and the NY City airports. Thus, even though it is not always a profit maker its presence enhances the quality of life for all residents including those that choose not to fly. And think about this. How many people avoid going to Boston or NYC to fly and use BDL instead? Quite a few people and I've seen more than one person on this forum mention that fact over the years since it is much easier to get in and out of Windsor Locks and also easier to travel to and from BDL compared to a two hour or longer drive to the other airports.
This situation is not that different than the concept of either continuing with the band aid fix approach to the XL Center or upgrading it to a major league arena again or tearing it down and building a new facility. Tearing it down could at least lead to a new state of the art 10,000 seat arena for minor league hockey and basketball among other events and the cost to maintain a smaller facility would benefit the taxpayers after the initial cost of construction. Otherwise, upgrading the facility or building a new facility that can accommodate pro sports again is the wisest choice as those of us that are in favor of this concept have illustrated with our points and benefits of a bigger and more modern pro sized coliseum.
Hartford also hosted the 1981 World Figure Skating Championships, which introduced the world to Scott Hamilton. It was a world stage city. It unfortunately has not hosted since.
The lack of development in Hartford is truly perplexing. I drive by and do not even see a crane in the skyline. I'd expect more from the capital city of one of the richest states in the U.S. Coupled with high state income taxes and very high Hartford mill rates, the people should demand a better city.
And it is very surprising that the city or surrounding area does not have a Big 4 professional sports team. As it has been mentioned before, the Hartford/New Haven media market is the largest in the US without a team. Many smaller markets at least have one. Added the fact as it has been mentioned multiple times, CT has one of the highest if not highest incomes per capita and disposal incomes, the people of CT are able to spend. Don't forget ESPN, the world wide leader in sports is right in the area, and NBC Sports are nearby in Stamford. This all makes the opportunity of having a team in the area incredibly lucrative.
The most obvious answer is to bring the Whalers back. Taking the team from Phoenix probably make the most sense at this point. The demand for the Whalers still really seems to be there. I still see people wearing a ton of Whalers apparel. I cannot think of a defunct team that still boast as much apparel as the Whalers. You hardly ever see Boston Braves or Boston Redskins shirts or hats being worn.
And proximity to NYC and Boston should not be a disadvantage or an excuse. Its poor way of thinking that greatly hinders the areas prosperity and future. If anything the proximity should be an advantage as areas to draw from..
Great points and I forgot about the World Figure Skating Championships in 1981. My friend's brother and his skating partner from my years in Simsbury participated in the Pairs Dance from the years 1980 to at least 1985 if I recall but in each case they just missed out on going to the Olympics.
The ADI is a better indicator of a region's marketing ability in terms of the population it can reach than the actual size of the city. Green Bay is a perfect example of that. Looks like Pittsburgh jumped ahead of Hartford within the last few years in this ranking system for the ADI rating.
IF the Coyotes are really averaging less than 5,000 people a game there is no doubt the Hartford area could easily get more people into a building. The Whalers had sold something like 11,500 season tickets before the deadline set by Karmanos and the city asked for a few more weeks to try to get the last few hundred needed to keep the team. That deadline was not extended even by a month and that ended that idea.
Mayor Bronin met with business and other community organizations last week. He called for them to bring remote workers back to the office. He stated that on certain days due to remote working and hybrid work patterns that thousands of workers are absent from downtown. This has been my observation since post lockdown Covid. I was sitting next to some Hartford restaurant owners on a recent flight and we were discussing this very problem and its impact on their businesses. They told me that they have had to close on several days because lunch and afternoon crowds are nonexistent. Wednesdays and Thursdays have decent lunch crowds but most evenings that they are open they still close by 8 pm because after the happy hour/dinner crowd leaves there is nobody left unless an event is taking place at the XL Center or Yard Goats Stadium. One longtime downtown owner is not sure how much longer they can continue in this manner since fixed costs, taxes and the ability to keep workers with reduced operating hours are real issues.
We also spoke about the increased apartments and housing development and the owners said that in the case of students downtown, as well as some of the housing, it doesn't translate into more business due to limited budgets versus the reality of what it costs a restaurant to serve a meal and keep a business going. College kids are not eating $25+ entrees and drinking $9 beers and $15 cocktails. The owners said that a combination of business people bringing their teams in for lunch and happy hours, along with events, are what keeps the downtown going. The events are quite good for business. They also stated that unfortunately Hartford isn't all that walkable and that the XL Center acts as a road block since few people will walk from Pratt Street to Ann Street or vice versa.
Sadly, I don't see the mayor's call for the return to the office as being in the cards. Many of the businesses that he spoke to have already significantly downsized their in-person presence and accelerated their work-from-home/hybrid models. These businesses are finding that for many parts of their business it is not only is more cost effective but it also is a good attractor and retention tool for key employees.
I personally believe that live/work/play developments can be successful. However, for that to occur the city needs more drivers. Whether you are a sports fan or not, one cannot deny that a professional-level team brings in the crowds. The Yard Goats has given a glimpse of how that works.
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