Cleveland Development Discussions (Sandusky: exodus, flooding, sewer)

[ohioaninsc]

I would absolutely love to see The Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland get built...downtown is lacking way too much in retail and while this isn't exactly along Public Square, this would be hugely beneficial...plus maybe get the Waterfront Line service to improve.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

I would absolutely love to see The Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland get built...downtown is lacking way too much in retail and while this isn't exactly along Public Square, this would be hugely beneficial...plus maybe get the Waterfront Line service to improve.

Unfortunately downtown Cleveland is struggling mightily with regard to retail -- it is almost nonexistent. And people are split as to how this project fits in, or be built at all. Some, like you, feel this could boost retail downtown. Others feel it would hurt and that these stores should be in our traditional retail area: along Euclid between Public and Playhouse Squares. I've also heard that outlet stores are unbecoming of downtown's core.

I say bring on this project. It's planned for a desolate area that is accessible both from the Shoreway and RTA's Waterfront Rapid line, which, if I had my druthers, would be extended a couple hundred feet to put riders nearer to the stores. Such a project would most definitely boost the WFL's generally anemic ridership.

btw, to WRNative's comment/question: the last I've heard, the multi-modal transportation center's most recent proposal had it located just west of E. 9th Street at the current Amtrak station. However the Neotrans blog indicates this project hasn't generated much traction among local leaders.

[ohioaninsc]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Unfortunately downtown Cleveland is struggling mightily with regard to retail -- it is almost nonexistent. And people are split as to how this project fits in, or be built at all. Some, like you, feel this could boost retail downtown. Others feel it would hurt and that these stores should be in our traditional retail area: along Euclid between Public and Playhouse Squares. I've also heard that outlet stores are unbecoming of downtown's core.

I say bring on this project. It's planned for a desolate area that is accessible both from the Shoreway and RTA's Waterfront Rapid line, which, if I had my druthers, would be extended a couple hundred feet to put riders nearer to the stores. Such a project would most definitely boost the WFL's generally anemic ridership.

btw, to WRNative's comment/question: the last I've heard, the multi-modal transportation center's most recent proposal had it located just west of E. 9th Street at the current Amtrak station. However the Neotrans blog indicates this project hasn't generated much traction among local leaders.

The problem with the downtown core is there is not enough continuous spots available for a bunch of stores like this...and parking would be an issue. I know urban fans don't like parking but if you want us suburbanites to come downtown, you have to have low cost parking for us. I don't see any way this project would hurt downtown. None whatsoever.

[bjimmy24]

Tower city should in theory work. Look at prudential center in boston, it's the same idea. Tower city looks tired and dated though and people already have in their heads that it sucks. Would be nice to just redo the whole thing.


As a downtown resident now, that is the one major gripe the lack of virtually any retail. Just a little would go a long way. There are vacant store fronts on prospect and euclid. Something there would he great too. I find it kinda hard to believe we dont have anything real yet, there seem to be plenty of residents down here and some of them have quite a lot of money.

[TheProf]

Downtown Cleveland, as well as Cleveland regionally, lacks leadership and cooperation, which is why the current retail mess exists. While some are rallying against this outlet store concept as potential harm to downtown's core in terms of potential, future retail, few have hardly said anything about, perhaps, a major, existing impediment: Steelyard Commons. SC is just a scant 3 miles (if that) from downtown, and has stores that could work downtown, like Target, Marshall's (I'd prefer it's other half, TJ Maxx), Kay Jewelers and others.

Everytime there's talk about putting, say, a Target, Marshall's or even an H&M, Old Navy or anything similar, officials throw up their hands and claim, downtown needs 25K residents to make such retail work... total B.S. Why should Steelyard work? Because it has free parking? SC isn't even easy to find; you have to go our of your way to get there. It's a big-box, strip mall, in a no-man's land industrial valley off a freeway exit, down the hill from one of Cleveland's trendiest, dense, walkable neighborhoods: Tremont. SC sits on formerly contaminated industrial plant land that was cleared specifically for this big-box complex. Not surprisingly, no hotel or residential project of any kind has sprung up at SC.

But Steelyard Commons, with its downtown-retail-sucking ability, exists because the powers that be wanted it, put up serious money to make it happen, and local pols capitulated to the almighty dollar ... as usual. But these same pols won't lift a serious finger to encourage downtown retail, along Euclid and in/around Tower City, where it should be. They just sit back, rely on the excuse-statistics on why downtown retail can't happen, and let business interest do what they want: like Dan Gilbert who bought Tower City's Avenue, but is currently choking out the last vestiges of what little, decent downtown/TC retail we have, instead rolling the dice on the unproven block-chain promise.

Downtown Cleveland retail is an embarrassment, even compared with cities Cleveland's size and smaller, like Baltimore, Pittsburgh and even Milwaukee. And btw, the era of the large, glitzy or semi-glitzy department store is over -- Amazon et al., is killing it in all but the largest old-line, big-time transit cities like NYC, Chicago, Boston and Philly (and in Philly, Macy's, the last of its big department stores, is hanging on, with a 3-level store (which is really 2.5 levels since it includes a mezzanine) -- down from a massive, 11-story, block long palace built as John Wanamaker's in 1913. Offices occupy much of the rest of the building; the parts that aren't sitting empty, that is. Philly, though, has filled the gap with "lesser" downtown retail outlets like 2 small Targets, TJ Maxx, Burlington, Filene's Basement and Marshall's, ... among others.... This in a downtown that registers over 100,000 residents (compared to Cleveland's growing 15-17,000)...

... but Target, TJ Maxx, Burlington, and other similar stores could fill the bill in downtown Cleveland -- hey, if they're good enough for the urban core of an old-line, haughty city like Philadelphia, why not Cleveland. But until Cleveland finds pols and corporate leaders with vision and guts, ... it will never happen.

... one major shining light of another kind of retail that is making it in downtown Cleveland: Heinen's magnificent supermarket/food center. Conventional Cleveland thinking would have said "no way" to such a store ... after all, where's the parking!!?? Not enough nearby residents! ... You really expect Clevelanders to take cabs, Uber, buses (or free downtown Trolleys)? ... or even, God forbid, ... walk!!?? ... Thanks to Gies and the forward-thinking Heinen brothers for making this (national) gem of a downtown supermarket happen. And now Clevelanders, and visitors alike, are in love with the place... Vision...

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Tower city should in theory work. Look at prudential center in boston, it's the same idea. Tower city looks tired and dated though and people already have in their heads that it sucks. Would be nice to just redo the whole thing.

The problem with outlet stores placed in Tower City is that there is no easy freeway access with free parking, a seeming prerequisite for outlet malls.

I have to admit that I would visit an outlet mall on the North Marginal Road several times a year. If it were located inside Tower City, likely much, much less often.

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

As a downtown resident now, that is the one major gripe the lack of virtually any retail. Just a little would go a long way. There are vacant store fronts on prospect and euclid. Something there would he great too. I find it kinda hard to believe we dont have anything real yet, there seem to be plenty of residents down here and some of them have quite a lot of money.

What retail opportunities do you miss downtown? Don't get me wrong. I well remember when downtown was a national retail center. My mother liked the department stores in Cleveland more than those in NYC circa 1960. This time of year, I miss the Sterling Linder Christmas tree and all of the downtown holiday window displays ("A Christmas Story" omitted the Sterling Linder Christmas tree likely because it would have been prohibitively expensive to recreate for a single scene). And until Higbee's closed, I regularly shopped at the excellent men's store in the Downtown Higbee's; I don't even remember if Higbee's closed in Tower City before or after the Dillard's purchase and rebranding of Higbee's in 1992. Apparently, the rebranded Dillard's store in Tower City closed only in 2002, much later than I remembered, but I wasn't working downtown by the late 1990s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higbee%27s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling-Lindner_Co.

https://www.cleveland.com/remembers/...e_and_oth.html

https://www.ecrater.com/p/2116463/fa...r-christmas-tr

Have you ever been in Geiger's? Have you explored the 5th St. Arcades?

There's a CVS near East 9th St. And Tower City does have several useful retail outlets. Amazingly, Brooks Brothers has survived in Tower City.

https://www.towercitycenter.com/directory/

Ridiculously, it takes 50 minutes each way to get to Steelyard Commons from Playhouse Square using mass transit, according to Google Transit. 80 minutes to get to Crocker Park. One hour to Beachwood Place; how ridiculous is it that mass transit service to Beachwood's upscale retail center takes just 10 minutes longer than Steelyard Commons?

If the Outlet Mall is built on the North Marginal, it would benefit greatly from a free trolley picking up persons in residential areas, near hotels, businesses, CSU, etc. Walking to Tower City to catch the Waterfront Line is too time consuming IMO especially in bad weather.

[TheProf]

I'm very happy we have Brooks Brothers, as well as Bedrock's commitment to keeping them in TC (it would be nice, too, if they could get a nice window display on PS as opposed to that garish JACK window). Geiger's is a nice store, too, as well as some of the clothiers and boutiques in the 5th Street Arcades. Problem is, our retail is too scattershot around downtown. There needs to be a go-to place or district to find them. Also, we MUST have retail that stays open beyond 6...

... case in point: in early October we had a convention in Baltimore. One Thursday night after dinner in the Inner Harbor, one female associate was chilly and wanted to by a nice but inexpensive jacket. There were several places in the Gallery she looked at, but didn't see anything she wanted; but the fact is, she had multiple options right in downtown. The newer Harbor East had places, but they were too expensive. She settled on a nice jacket at the H&M in the old Harborplace. I was thinking, if the same thing happened in Cleveland, this lady would have been out of luck because the few compatible clothiers in downtown would have been closed. Her only options would be some absurdly expensive brand stuff from that little Jack Casino store or, maybe, an equally over-priced city-branded jacket at the Cleveland Store on E. 4th Street. Of course, I guess we could have all hopped an Uber/Lyft for, gulp, Steelyard ... Unacceptable.

[bjimmy24]

As far as retail I wish we had downtown, furnishing my apartment has been done solely in the suburbs. No good place for just household items that arent crappy cvs quality. So far that's been most relevant to me. Would be nice if there were real clothing options, such as the few at van aken.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

As far as retail I wish we had downtown, furnishing my apartment has been done solely in the suburbs. No good place for just household items that arent crappy cvs quality. So far that's been most relevant to me. Would be nice if there were real clothing options, such as the few at van aken.

Levin and to IMO a lesser extent Value City, both in Mentor, offer good values in furniture. Both stores deliver. Surroundings is a downtown furniture store, but I think it's an upscale store.

[1watertiger]

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