More Southern State: Texas or Florida (Los Angeles, live, largest, place)

[SouthernBoy205]

Originally Posted by polo89

I feel Houston/Galveston/Baytown has too many similarities to Louisiana through the Gulf culture, for the Houston area not to be Southern. Especially when you look at a city like Galveston. Look at the architecture of the homes. And look at the lineage in some of the residents of the Houston area. Plenty of Creoles and Redbones. Like, like, Beyonce. Her mother is a Creole woman from Galveston. Her father a Bahamian(But I think he might've lived in Miami before he moved to Texas and met Beyonce's mother)

Her father is from Gadsden, Alabama.

[TexasReb]

Even though I totally take issue with most of your points, I give you credit for writing an articulate and well-thought out post.

To reply...

=TexasTwoFace;34001939] Although I don' t consider either to be a southern state, and only a border area of both to really be southern I voted Florida because of the sheer amount of Texas that doesn't reseamble the south, I don't think anyone calling west Texas or the panhandle the south nor I suspect central Texas or the border towns.

Can you explain a bit more as to what you mean as to not "resembling the South." Topographically? The presence of Southern Baptist Churches? The accents?

And none of my friends or family from Dallas or Austin has ever self-identified as southern.

Then these friends and family of yours -- no insult in the least intended -- are a definite minority when it comes to regional self-identification (I will post that extremely extensive study once again, here is a bit), and this was based on extensive and years of polls/surveys...

From my travels in the south though it always feels like a different culture, the cuisine especially seems very different. The Tex-Mex, brisket and chili I was raised on was not what I was served in southern homes. I was never handed a Dr Pepper to accompany the meal. The conversation always seemed to somehow land on college football.

What southeastern state did you visit? What "crusine" were you served while there? Not withstanding that all the Texican food you mention have definite Southern influences, I would be interested in hearing more about the foodstuffs you mention which were totally unrelated to your experiences in Texas...?

Their knowledge of the Civil War always seemed greater and more intimate than my own. They had a much greater working relationship with neigherboring states that it seems Texas ever has.

The bolded is an interesting point, and I would like to take that one up with you, as I find it something that lots of Texans don't know much about. But anyway, what do you know about Texas' role in the War Between the States? I promise this is not a slam at you at all , but rather that I do get peeved when I hear "Deep South Purists" spout off when it comes to knowing nothing at all about just how totally "Confederate Southern" Texas actually was in that day (it was an original Confederate state as in being one of the 7 charter members).

But yes, I can understand how most in that part of the South would know more about it than the average Texan...but only by virtue of that those states experienced much more physical "war devastation" than did Texas.

On the other hand? Perhaps the reason is because Texans kicked the yankee invasion forces out every single time they attempted to violate our borders (see Battle of Sabine Pass). And how many know the last battle of the War was fought on Texas soil...and it was a Confederate victory..? And that is just a couple of examples...

Now there are similarities, and a lot shared history, but I think Texas has developed its own unique culture seperate from the south, but of course so has south Florida, but I find the panhandle and Jacksonville almost indistinguishable from the rest of the south. However I must admit this comes from a severe urbanite, I do not profess to know what is in the hearts and minds of people in small towns in east Texas.

And that explains quite a bit...but I mean that in an understanding and congenial way! And no question that Texas is TEXAS. Where the whole real "problem" on this one comes up is one some folks out there simply cannot comprehend and/or just "don't get it", that for a majority of Texans, we feel no contradiction at all with being Texan and Southern as well.

Why should we?

[TexasReb]

The Texas Cowboy did come from the east, yes; but as they came to Texas, they incorporated Mexican vaquero tactics into their technique; therefore, not only did Texas have influence from the east, they also had influence from the west.

Verrry uninformed thing to say. LOL

Where do you come by this analysis of yours? Whatever, FIRST of all, any influence from Mexico would not have been from the "west" at all, as in the sense of geography and certainly not from any Rocky Mountain/Interior West state (i.e. New Mexico/Colorado/etc). Far as THAT goes, the real origins of the "vaquero" were not Mexican but Spanish...an influence which also involved many states in the southeast where other cow-herders were came across the same influence...as they too were once possessions.

The point is, that the early Texas settlers yes, were influenced by the Spanish vaqueros to a certain and notable degree...but once settlers from the southeast flooded into the state? Then it was the Old South cattle drover tradition that took over. And REAL "cattle boom" in Texas came about after the War and there was no question about it. Hell, those guys were mostly former Confederate soldiers (or sons of the same), and it became apparent in their choice of saddles, lifestyle, attitudes, etc. The prototype of the original real Texas cowboy was a Southerner with Southern attitudes and history. No question.

Yes, there are Texans in this thread that identify with the South, but the subregion of the South they identify with is the Western South, not the Deep South. This is because of the undeniable western influences that can be seen throughout Texas; even TexasReb knows it, which is why he places Texas in the "Western South," to account for the polymerization of western and southern cultures.

Don't misquote/misinterpret me, YnOhTn...(or is it $M..you have never answered ). Unless you want a real scrap between us. Just saying.

But, ok...to be charitable and all and recognize that sometimes these things happen? Wellll...let me make it very clear from here on out. To wit, never presume, sir, to "explain" my motives to others. Yes, you have a right to your own interpretation -- which is fine -- but please never be so presumptuous of to act as a "spokesman"...especially when it goes against anything I actually said. Fair enough?

Now then? Yes, I agree with Raymond Gastil in his classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States" that most of Texas belongs to a sub-region of the South best labeled "western South". HOWEVER, this phrase was purely meant to denote a very unique part of the South in general; a western/frontier of the "eastern South." Got it now?

As to a comparison? It is no more different -- in terms of basic history/culture -- than if Kansas were to be considered "western Midwest" and Ohio "eastern Midwest"... So what? They are still simply matching parts of the greater region....both bringing in certain unique aspects of the whole thing.

In the same way that the "western South" brings a new and unique dimension to the "eastern South" in terms of making up "The South" itself...

Even in Houston, there are lots of people who don't even consider themselves to be southerners.

Uhhhh, even in Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia, there are folks who don't consider themselves Southerners, apparently...and just gimme a few and I will post the proof....

[TexasTwoFace]

I've traveled through all of them, but have definitely spent the most time in Georgia and Louisianna. The cuisine was a lot of creole/cajun which I like but outside of maybe the Razoo's chain isn't really that plentiful to find around here, there was a lot more seafood than I'm used growing up in North Texas, barbecue which had too much pork and not enough beef and was quite different to what I grew up with, and then more soul/southern food which I only ever really ate growing when I visited relatives in east Texas.

[slo1318]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

So you say...but by what yardstick are you using to measure this opinion...?

The only one that can be clearly conceded is El Paso...but even it has original Southern history not shared by other true SW cities like Phoenix, Santa Fe, etc. For instance, a certain Confederate history and that by self-identification measures, even around 20% of residents in that area consider themselves to live in the South.

But ok, the trans-pecos has always been a certain "odd man out". I will agree with that for sure.

But so far goes Austin and DFW? Welllll, if one wants to count the suburbs and recent explosive growth of the same as per the surge from west coast/northern/foreign migration into those areas? Yes, then it would have a certain validity.

BUT...that is only onepart of the story. That is, it doesn't in the least take away from that if one cares to get out of the recently developed/built "strip-mall and "cookie-cutter" housing additions? Into the REAL city's?

Then the same person would have to be blind as a bat not to see the solid South roots (in all ways), in the true core and surroundings of the above...

San Antonio is a little more complex...but its early history is Old South...and it still uses that phrase as part of it "tourist" literature. That is, a combination of "Old South and Old Mexico."

Can the same be said of any city at all in the interior Southwest?

So, where did you grow up?

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by slo1318

So, where did you grow up?

North Texas. You?

[TexasReb]

Yn0hTnA;34003782] Even in Houston, there are lots of people who don't even consider themselves to be southerners.

Here is the results of the poll I mentioned earlier...as concerning your apparent point that some Houstonians do not consider themselves Southerners. Ok...apparently some from Deep South states don't either...so what?

Here it is...(and many have seen it before and it gets tiresome...but perhaps some haven't...)

***********************************

This is taken from both the 7 year Southern Focus Poll and from an article in Annals of the American Geographer (Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels by James R. Shortridge). Both show that the majority of Texans, when asked, considered themselves to live in the South and be Southererners. To wit:

Southern Focus Poll (with comments by Dr. John Shelton Reed who conducted the poll via the UNC at Chapel Hill in the Southern Studies department), as well as an article on the study which appeared in many newspapers when it was first released:

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

**********

CHAPEL HILL Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and youre likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there weren't born there," he said. "In fact, most of them weren't born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why Im glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but havent been able to before."

*******

From the Annals of the Association of American Geographers, In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987), in the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas) seeks, through a statistically random analysis of identification cards sent out with a product, to identify contemporary trends of regional self-identification in terms of the four labels East, West, South, and Midwest. Here is a ranked list in terms of percentage of people who chose South as their primary regional identification.

More than 75%: 1. Louisiana 194/199 97.49% 2. Mississippi 72/75 96% 3. Alabama 122/130 93.85% 4. Florida 244/277 88.09% 5. Georgia 147/168 87.5% 6. Tennessee 156/190 82.11%

More than 50%: 1. Arkansas 56/77 72.73% 2. South Carolina 66/91 72.53% 3. Texas 526/739 71.18% 4. North Carolina 87/145 60%

[polo89]

Originally Posted by slo1318

Houston is the only one you can make a case for, but if we're going on labels it's Texan first then whatever next. The gulf coast ties it to southern gulf culture but it's not as distinct as other purely southern cities.
The other ones, in my opinion and experience, they are a different breed, a mix with the plains and west that doesn't exist west of the piney woods of east Texas.

That "whatever" meaning Southern. What else would it be?

[polo89]

Originally Posted by hipcat

I'd say Florida. Southern culture is found throughout Florida even as most of the state have a higher percentage of transplants and immigrants than Texan cities do.

There's most definitely more Southern culture in Miami than in El Paso.

Can't disagree with this. But you can argue the Southern culture that's found in Miami, is just as much of an imported culture as the Latin-Culture. Miami was never founded as a "Southern" city. More so a resort city for Northern tourist, and a port of entry for Bahamian laborers.

[polo89]

Originally Posted by TexasTwoFace

I've traveled through all of them, but have definitely spent the most time in Georgia and Louisianna. The cuisine was a lot of creole/cajun which I like but outside of maybe the Razoo's chain isn't really that plentiful to find around here, there was a lot more seafood than I'm used growing up in North Texas, barbecue which had too much pork and not enough beef and was quite different to what I grew up with, and then more soul/southern food which I only ever really ate growing when I visited relatives in east Texas.

Having been in many Florida homes, typical cuisine consisted of rice, fried-plantain, and drinks consisted of Caribbean Kola Champagne. Not typical of what you'd find in most Southern homes.