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I agree with this:" despite all of this Florida is still Southern." Texas is not. They are both cosmopolitan states, but the Mexican influence on Texas is too big, too strong, too long-lived for Texas to be southern. To use food as an example, the state that invented margaritas, fajitas, nachos and breakfast tacos is not a southern state in its eating habits. Sure people also eat black eyed peas for New Years in Texas, but Mexico borders Texas in a way that Haiti, Jamaica, Greece, Russia etc don't border Florida. Cuba is close, but there are MANY more Mexicans in Texas than there are Cubans in Florida. 40% of the population of Texas is Hispanic, the overwhelming majority of them Mexican. That is the single fact for me that makes Texas definitively not southern. In terms of its economy and demography, Texas has more in common with California, than it does with Florida.
But doesn't UNC's Southern Focus Polling contradict your assertion?
68% of Texans identified as southerners
51% of Floridians identified as southerners
What more really needs to be said? Also, 57.8% of non-Hispanic Whites in Texas are Evangelicals.
58.5% of South Carolina's non-Hispanic White population is Evangelical Christian.
60.2% of Georgia's non-Hispanic White population is Evangelical Christian.
52.0% of Virginia's non-Hispanic White population is Evangelical Christian.
But doesn't UNC's Southern Focus Polling contradict your assertion?
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Not necessarily. Did they poll all 26 million Texans? Did they even touch West Texas or the RGV? He's right in the sense that Texas has more in common with California economically and demographically than Florida or basically any other state in the South though.
It's actually lower than I thought regarding Texas. Going by what you see in East Texas, you would for sure think it would be higher than that. Not to mention the vast amount of large churches in Texas. Still, it shows up around the same percentage as Virginia. I would bet number gets lower in the coming decades. I would bet Catholicism would increase though.
Not necessarily. Did they poll all 26 million Texans? Did they even touch West Texas or the RGV?
That's why we have weighted samples. But, I mean, there were a lot of people who said Obama wasn't winning Ohio because Reuters, Gallup, Marist, etc. didn't poll every single voter in the state. We saw how that worked out.
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Originally Posted by Spade
He's right in the sense that Texas has more in common with California economically and demographically than Florida or basically any other state in the South though.
And that makes Texas a bit unique for a southern state. It still doesn't mean it's not southern. And it doesn't mean that it's less southern than Florida. So far, we know that...
Fewer Floridians self-identify as southerners (51% vs 68%).
Less of Florida falls within the southern dialect zone (according to a 2006 study conducted by the University of Texas).
So why exactly would Florida be more southern than Texas? That makes no sense to me. I didn't even mention that Texas hasn't voted for a Democratic Presidential candidate since 1968. There's just a host of objective things you could point out to say Texas is more southern than Florida. Even Southern Hip Hop started in Texas.
It's actually lower than I thought regarding Texas. Going by what you see in East Texas, you would for sure think it would be higher than that. Not to mention the vast amount of large churches in Texas. Still, it shows up around the same percentage as Virginia. I would bet number gets lower in the coming decades. I would bet Catholicism would increase though.
Or Georgia.
The number is astoundingly high because Texas is a majority-minority state. When you look at just the non-Hispanic, White population, the percentage of Evangelical Christians is about the same as Georgia and South Carolina.
And it's clearly much higher than Florida, which is on the verge of becoming majority-minority. So yeah, I'm not sure why most people are voting for Florida in this poll. It's not that the state is not southern at all, but compared to Texas it's not that southern.
That's why we have weighted samples. But, I mean, there were a lot of people who said Obama wasn't winning Ohio because Reuters, Gallup, Marist, etc. didn't poll every single voter in the state. We saw how that worked out.
That's just my way of saying...I don't take any poll seriously unless it polls every single soul and since that can't happen, I don't bother with them. I take them about as a serious as when people say "Study shows".
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And that makes Texas a bit unique for a southern state. It still doesn't mean it's not southern. And it doesn't mean that it's less southern than Florida. So far, we know that...
I don't think anyone has said that
Fewer Floridians self-identify as southerners (51% vs 68%).
Less of Florida falls within the southern dialect zone (according to a 2006 study conducted by the University of Texas).
So why exactly would Florida be more southern than Texas? That makes no sense to me. I didn't even mention that Texas hasn't voted for a Democratic Presidential candidate since 1968. There's just a host of objective things you could point out to say Texas is more southern than Florida. Even Southern Hip Hop started in Texas.
Actually, the first Southern hip hop came from Florida with 2 Live Crew back in the late 80s. The Geto Boyz didn't come on the scene until the 91. Florida is certainly more transplant than Texas so that percentage is not at all surprising. I would bet many of those in that poll are half time Florida residents. I certainly said Texas is more southern than Florida. But it's not a runaway either. Both are less Southern as a whole than Georgia, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. Even Arkansas and perhaps Virginia are more Southern than Texas. Arguments can be made for both sides. You made one with the religious overtones. However, others can make them using pure geography in that there are areas in Texas that will pass off as Southern whatsoever and we've brought them up countless times. Whether people like it or not, most of Florida and most of Texas are Southern. But these two are more and less in different ways. Texas a little bit more and Florida a little bit less.
That's just my way of saying...I don't take any poll seriously unless it polls every single soul and since that can't happen, I don't bother with them. I take them about as a serious as when people say "Study shows".
Well, it looks like you and Mitt Romney have that in common...
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Originally Posted by Spade
Actually, the first Southern hip hop came from Florida with 2 Live Crew back in the late 80s. The Geto Boyz didn't come on the scene until the 91.
Actually, it started in Texas with the Geto Boyz. Ben Westoff even documents this in his book "Dirty South." 2 Live Crew was from the South, but they did not pioneer southern hip hop. Southern hip hop wasn't even a concept until the Geto Boyz came on the scene. I have no idea where some of you people get this stuff from.
I mean, the big difference between Houston and Miami is that most people would say that the former is part of the "Dirty, Dirty" South (along with that PAT!). Miami isn't that "dirty" nowadays. About 45% of Blacks in the Miami metro area report West Indian ancestry.
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Originally Posted by Spade
Florida is certainly more transplant than Texas so that percentage is not at all surprising. I would bet many of those in that poll are half time Florida residents. I certainly said Texas is more southern than Florida. But it's not a runaway either. Both are less Southern as a whole than Georgia, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. Even Arkansas and perhaps Virginia are more Southern than Texas.
Okay. Hold on. Back up the truck. So you mean to tell me that the state that gave us George W. Bush and voted for him twice, voted against Obama twice, has executed more people (and African Americans) than anywhere in the nation, lynched more people (and African Americans) than any state not called Mississippi or Georgia, grows more cotton than any other state by a landslide, produced some of the most influential works of southern hip hop, and is home to the Reverend Joel Olsteen and Pastor John Hagee is less southern than Virginia???
Thanks for the comic relief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade
Arguments can be made for both sides. You made one with the religious overtones. However, others can make them using pure geography in that there are areas in Texas that will pass off as Southern whatsoever and we've brought them up countless times. Whether people like it or not, most of Florida and most of Texas are Southern. But these two are more and less in different ways. Texas a little bit more and Florida a little bit less.
It's not just religion. It's linguistics and politics as well. Southern accents are largely confined to Northh Florida and the Panhandle, but they are far more ubiquitous in Texas. And Florida doesn't vote very much like a southern state. Texas, on the other hand, has been a Republican stronghold for more than 40 years (along with the rest of the South).
I agree with this:" despite all of this Florida is still Southern." Texas is not. They are both cosmopolitan states, but the Mexican influence on Texas is too big, too strong, too long-lived for Texas to be southern. To use food as an example, the state that invented margaritas, fajitas, nachos and breakfast tacos is not a southern state in its eating habits. Sure people also eat black eyed peas for New Years in Texas, but Mexico borders Texas in a way that Haiti, Jamaica, Greece, Russia etc don't border Florida. Cuba is close, but there are MANY more Mexicans in Texas than there are Cubans in Florida. 40% of the population of Texas is Hispanic, the overwhelming majority of them Mexican. That is the single fact for me that makes Texas definitively not southern. In terms of its economy and demography, Texas has more in common with California, than it does with Florida.
South Florida has ties to the Latin-American economy in ways many metro areas wouldn't comprehend. Hispanics run almost every facet of public office and overall politics in South Florida cities, that many folks wouldn't comprehend. We've all heard it being said on C-D before, "Miami is a 3rd world, banana boat city". YEP!!! Florida is about 23% Hispanic. 3rd in the nation behind Texas and California. And contrary to popular beliefe, EVERY major city in Florida has a high percentage of West-Indian folks. Not just Miami, but Orlando, Tampa, and even Jacksonville and Tallahassee.
All good points, but I see Texan culture differently than southern culture. Its a mix of southern, western, and plains, but decidedly independent.
Theres no perfect answer in this poll, a case can be made either way. The same watering down of the south happens in South Florida, where its become a mix of American and Carribbean culture.
I think the 3rd ranking I gave Houston was for Hispanic population, not Mexican, which I believe New York would jump in front of them.
I don't really know what Southern culture is. I'm a foreigner, I don't quite really care about regional culture outside of cultural parades and cuisine. I'm not really living in America to pick up some regional accent by someone of a unrelated race than I, nor am I here to care what happened in the past. It's like someone randomly in America all of a sudden giving a damn about why India and Pakistan split. No one cares aside from those affected and history or culture geeks. I do, however, respect history and think it has precedence as to what a place truly is or not.
To me Southern culture has always been largely cuisine, a few accents here and there, and people riding horses and attending rodeos once a year.
I'm also not sold on that University of North Carolina survey entirely for the present day. It's a great study if present was 1999 but it doesn't work as nicely in two of three fastest growing states in the country. It's probably outdated now. It was polled (1999) back in a time when Texas was the population of present day Florida or New York (state), which was when it was 6-7 million smaller. The bulk of the population growth, or should I say overwhelming majority since that time period has come from demographics that wouldn't readily identify as Southern and that's a massive population of people, just a million shy of Virginia's total population. I think the same can be said of Florida.
The honest answer would be both states. Cultural dilution can erode a culture, make it weaker or at times stronger, but history is permanent. It's what I feel even Washingtonians should eventually understand as they grasp at air making laughable claims like "we cant be south, we're liberal, dense, rowhomes, income, income, income, income, and did I mentioned INCOME!!" as if those things are exclusively impossible for an area within the census confines of the South to accomplish. If it were so, Houston wouldn't be making Washington (and everywhere except the Bay Area) look like a beggar these days in income creation. It's laughable and it's something I'd expect an actual mentally retarded person to say.
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