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Yeah, technically Clayton is just a business district/suburb. But if you ignore the city lines it feels more like the downtown of that entire urbanized-suburban area that I mentioned. If it were one city it would definitely compete against St. Louis, it already does in some ways. And its skyline is comparable to many mid-sized cities. Also, it's nearly the same distance from DT St. Louis as DT St. Paul is from DT Minny.
But you're right that Clayton doesn't have suburbs, because it developed as one little suburb instead of becoming a city in its own right. But regardless of how city lines are drawn, it has the feel of a downtown in a bordering city, and not just a business district in a tiny suburb. It could be compared to Buckhead, but that's in the same city as Atlanta.
I didn't say it was St. Paul, but it's St. Louis' version of St. Paul (a 2nd downtown in a bordering city) Of course it's smaller, because St. Louis is smaller. But you're just looking at Clayton by itself. It's part of a larger urbanized-suburban area. They just happen to be broken up into different cities. Clayton, University City, Richmond Heights, Brentwood, Maplewood, and Webster Groves have a combined population of 100,000 and a population density near 5,000 (close to St. Louis' population density), so it could very well be its own city. I'm saying if it were its own city, then it would definitely have the relationship to St. Louis that St. Paul has to Minneapolis.
And I think Clayton stacks up against Bloomington because Bloomington has 85,000 with a smaller skyline than Clayton.
St. Paul is a seperate major city that competed next to Minneapolis as it grew, but ended up gaining position of capital instead of biggest city. It is not just a business district in a bordering city. It is almost 200 years old. It is not a business district in a sprawled suburb. Even if Clayton annexed the other suburbs, it would not have the relationship to St. Louis that St. Paul has to Minneapolis. I have nothing against Clayton, but it isn't a St. Paul.
I said that Clayton is St. Louis' version of St. Paul in that it's a second downtown, in a separate city that borders the other city, and they're in separate counties. Their downtowns are both 8 -9 miles away from the other city's downtown and try to compete in some ways. I didn't say they were similar in other ways because they're different in terms of size, feel, etc. Clayton is a new, white-collar city with not a lot of history while St. Paul is older, more blue-collar, and more historic. They're very different.
You see this and you'd think you were approaching a city of 100,000 or so, not a suburb of 16,000. http://images.metroscenes.com/images...nes.com_53.jpg
In reality, the urbanized area around DT Clayton is much bigger than the 16,000 that live in the city limits.
Greater St. Louis has a population of 2.8 million. Minneapolis-St. Paul has 3.3 million and has a higher population density so of course everything is going to be larger scale. Just like St. Louis' skyline is smaller than Minneapolis', Clayton's skyline is smaller than St. Paul's. I never said that Clayton was as big as St. Paul or could compete with it. I said they both have a similar relationship to the other city they're near. However, I made a mistake in thinking that St. Paul was much smaller than Minneapolis, even though they're not far off in population. They're more like twins that I thought they were. Clayton would be more like a little sister city
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bslette
St. Paul is a seperate major city that competed next to Minneapolis as it grew, but ended up gaining position of capital instead of biggest city. It is not just a business district in a bordering city. It is almost 200 years old. It is not a business district in a sprawled suburb. Even if Clayton annexed the other suburbs, it would not have the relationship to St. Louis that St. Paul has to Minneapolis. I have nothing against Clayton, but it isn't a St. Paul.
Clayton isn't a sprawled out suburb. The sprawled out suburbs are farther out in the hills. Clayton has a population density of 6,400 (more than STL and STP) And combined with the other suburbs I mentioned, they have a population of almost 100,000 and a population density close to 5,000, which is close to the densities of STL and STP. So if you call that sprawly, then St. Louis and St. Paul are sprawly too.
Why did Clayton become......Clayton (what it is today)? Does it have like zero taxes and free beer and wine flowing into people's houses?
clayton grew to be a commercial and government hub because it is the county seat of suburban st. louis county, which is distinctly separate from the independent city of st. louis. st. louis city acts as its own county. as such, clayton satisfies an important role as the de facto "downtown of the suburbs."
clayton grew to be a commercial and government hub because it is the county seat of suburban st. louis county, which is distinctly separate from the independent city of st. louis. st. louis city acts as its own county. as such, clayton satisfies an important role as the de facto "downtown of the suburbs."
But not all cities have a "downtown of the suburbs", so does Clayton essentially act like the large government center of the St. Louis region or something? What are the office buildings comprised of (which sectors of the economy: banking, industry, tech, etc.)?
But not all cities have a "downtown of the suburbs", so does Clayton essentially act like the large government center of the St. Louis region or something? What are the office buildings comprised of (which sectors of the economy: banking, industry, tech, etc.)?
yes, clayton's role as the government hub of st. louis county has attracted law firms, banks, investment companies and allied industries. there is also a healthy highrise/condo market there. downtown st. louis is still far and away the largest employment center in the metro area, but clayton has positioned itself as a solid secondary, mostly white-collar employment hub.
Most Urban: Minneapolis
Best Architecture:St.Louis
Most Pedestrian Friendly:Minneapolis
Most Urban project developments:St.Louis
Best Transit (rail and bus-ridership, routes etc): Minneapolis
Best Airport (out of the 3 cities):St.Louis
Economy:St.Louis (largest), Minneapolis (most active)
Nightlife:St.Louis
Most Culturally Diverse: Minneapolis
Education:St.Louis
Best Urban Park:St.Louis
Food:St.Louis
Music:Kansas City
Best Sports:St.Louis
Most Urban: Minneapolis
Best Architecture:St.Louis
Most Pedestrian Friendly:Minneapolis
Most Urban project developments:St.Louis
Best Transit (rail and bus-ridership, routes etc): Minneapolis
Best Airport (out of the 3 cities):St.Louis
Economy:St.Louis (largest), Minneapolis (most active)
Nightlife:St.Louis
Most Culturally Diverse: Minneapolis
Education:St.Louis
Best Urban Park:St.Louis
Food:St.Louis
Music:Kansas City
Best Sports:St.Louis
hmmm...not sure i agree about most urban, i think st. louis feels and appears more urban than minneapolis. however minneapolis has a larger and more robust economy than st. louis, at least according to gross metropolitan product.
And I'm not sure I agree that St. Louis has better urban project developments (although I'm not 100% sure what that means). If it means urban redevelopment in terms of scale, Minneapolis-St. Paul would be hands down better. If it's the TYPE of redevelopment, I would have no idea since I'm not too familiar with the intricacies of St. Louis development projects (just know the higher level statistics). If it's the change or progress being made then I can see St. Louis winning there, since it started as a much worse place prior to its urban renaissance.
For the record, I also don't agree with better food, sports (2 pro teams vs. 4), education (incl. K-12?) or urban parks (what's St. Louis' answer to the Chain of Lakes?), and frankly can't believe those answers!
*Edit* - the more I keep looking at that list the more glaring disparities I am finding, so I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with your list in general. Here's mine:
Most Urban: St. Louis (architecturally) Best Architecture: St.Louis Most Pedestrian Friendly: Minneapolis Most Urban project developments: Minneapolis (10,000 apartments in the pipeline, new Vikings stadium, and 2-3 LRT lines) Best Transit (rail and bus-ridership, routes etc): Minneapolis (St. Louis with rail) Best Airport (out of the 3 cities): Minneapolis is widely regarded as one of the best airports in the country/world Economy:Minneapolis (largest - $220B GDP), Minneapolis (most active - most diverse, fastest-growing) Nightlife: Minneapolis (1st/Hennepin is absolutely slamming on weekends....I haven't heard of anything like it in STL or KC on the same level) Most Culturally Diverse: Minneapolis Education: Minneapolis-St. Paul (have a good 10-12 universities between them, have by far the best K-12 public schools and higher graduation rates) Best Urban Park: Minneapolis (Chain of Lakes is 2nd to none in the Midwest, and is on par with Chicago) Food: Tie (I'll be nice since KC has BBQ, St. Louis does Italian and some fine cuisine, but Minneapolis is probably the current cuisine leader) Music: St. Louis (I like the blues history there as well as some of the rap scene, but Minny has quite the reputation as well with 1st Ave, etc.) Best Sports: Tie (KC has best fans, STL has best franchise (Cards), MSP has the most teams/fans)
Last edited by Min-Chi-Cbus; 12-17-2012 at 09:20 PM..
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