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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Which of the following cities seems to have the most people downtown? Both people working, shopping, just visiting, passing through etc. In which city do the crowds seem to spread over the largest area?
Also, make a comment on which city has the most people after hours and on weekends.
Also if you want do a ranking.
I've only been to Washington DC out of these cities so I will refrain from voting or ranking.
Never been to Toronto, but I'm guessing it's number 1. After that:
2. SF
3. Philly/DC ( i can't really decide which one has the edge)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summersm343
Could imagine it will take second place in 10 or so years if Philly and SF don't kick it up a gear in growth.
There's plenty of growth going on in downtown SF. Thousands of residential units and over 2 million square feet of office space have been built over the past 13 years or so (about 20 new high rises have been constructed in DT SF since 1999, as well as a new museum, and two new urban malls), and thousands more residential units and millions more square feet of office space are in the pipeline. We're talking literally over 2-dozen projects proposed/approved/under construction in DT SF at this very moment, including two new tallest towers and a new regional transit terminal, another new urban mall, as well as an arena and multiple new museums. SF's office vacancy rates are also continuously getting lower since the financial crisis, and are currently among the lowest in the nation (only DC, NYC and NO are doing better). SF also has the lowest retail vacancy rate in the nation (and there's a ton of retail in DT SF, so that's good news for it). That all sounds like DT SF's growth is already in gear, to me, especially considering that basically nothing new was built there from the late 80s until 1999. Basically every sign points to growth, and it's been that way for over a decade now.
So what exactly is your reasoning when you say that SF needs to kick the growth up a notch? Or lumping it in with Philly for that matter?
Philly has also had plenty of development in center city over the past decade or so...not as much as SF, but still a good amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summersm343
2. Philly and SF tie
One of the fallacies most perpetuated in the city vs. city forum is the downtown Philly=downtown SF thing.
Never been to Toronto, but I'm guessing it's number 1. After that:
2. SF
3. Philly/DC ( i can't really decide which one has the edge)
There's plenty of growth going on in downtown SF. Thousands of residential units and over 2 million square feet of office space have been built over the past 13 years or so (about 20 new high rises have been constructed in DT SF since 1999, as well as a new museum, and two new urban malls), and thousands more residential units and millions more square feet of office space are in the pipeline. We're talking literally over 2-dozen projects proposed/approved/under construction in DT SF at this very moment, including two new tallest towers and a new regional transit terminal, another new urban mall, as well as an arena and multiple new museums. SF's office vacancy rates are also continuously getting lower since the financial crisis, and are currently among the lowest in the nation (only DC, NYC and NO are doing better). SF also has the lowest retail vacancy rate in the nation (and there's a ton of retail in DT SF, so that's good news for it). That all sounds like DT SF's growth is already in gear, to me, especially considering that basically nothing new was built there from the late 80s until 1999. Basically every sign points to growth, and it's been that way for over a decade now.
So what exactly is your reasoning when you say that SF needs to kick the growth up a notch? Or lumping it in with Philly for that matter?
Philly has also had plenty of development in center city over the past decade or so...not as much as SF, but still a good amount.
One of the fallacies most perpetuated in the city vs. city forum is the downtown Philly=downtown SF thing.
It's personal preference really. If you think Downtown San Fran is MUCH BETTER than Center City Philly you have clearly never been here. Both San Fran and Philly are seeing about the same amount of development in my opinion and I agree it is a decent amount of development... just not the ridiculous amount of development DC is currently seeing. DC is seeing more development than both and probably just as much development as both cities combined in all honesty.
I grouped them like that because that was my opinion of what was the most vibrant and busiest downtowns in the US.... it's just an opinion no need to attack me on that.
Was recently in Toronto and can't see how it would be placed above Philly and SF in terms of downtown activity... Not that it's exactly sleepy, but it definitely did not seem to have the same vibrancy/energy of those other 2 cities.
^ I find that hard to believe. Downtown Toronto is teeming with people and activity, sometimes you can barely navigate the sidewalks because it's so crowded. Yonge and Dundas is probably the busiest downtown intersection in the U.S. and Canada outside of Manhattan. There are dozens of skyscrapers under construction throughout the downtown area - most being condos which will add tens of thousands of new downtown residents. There are also more than a few office buildings currently under construction right now too, adding millions of square feet of new office space (to the current total of 88 million) with millions more proposed. A dozen of the new buildings currently being built are in excess of 50 stories high (with the tallest under construction at 78 storeys).
As of the 2011 census, over 175,000 people lived in the 4.5 square mile area comprising what is considered to be downtown Toronto with an overall density of 38,000 people per square mile, with some individual downtown census tracts clocking in at over 175,000 people per square mile. Toronto easily matches or exceeds anything you will find in Philly or SF.
It's personal preference really. If you think Downtown San Fran is MUCH BETTER than Center City Philly you have clearly never been here. Both San Fran and Philly are seeing about the same amount of development
It is important to note that SF does have a larger employment base in its city limits, particularly concentrated in technology industries that are doing very well at the moment. This factor, as well as a more well-rounded retail environment, is what would give SF an edge to many over Philly. Certainly not a dramatic edge, but a distinct one nonetheless.
^ I find that hard to believe. Downtown Toronto is teeming with people and activity, sometimes you can barely navigate the sidewalks because it's so crowded. Yonge and Dundas is probably the busiest downtown intersection in the U.S. and Canada outside of Manhattan. There are dozens of skyscrapers under construction throughout the downtown area - most being condos which will add tens of thousands of new downtown residents. There are also more than a few office buildings currently under construction right now too, adding millions of square feet of new office space (to the current total of 88 million) with millions more proposed. A dozen of the new buildings currently being built are in excess of 50 stories high (with the tallest under construction at 78 storeys).
As of the 2011 census, over 175,000 people lived in the 4.5 square mile area comprising what is considered to be downtown Toronto with an overall density of 38,000 people per square mile, with some individual downtown census tracts clocking in at over 175,000 people per square mile. Toronto easily matches or exceeds anything you will find in Philly or SF.
Hmm... yeah I mean I understand that the sheer density is there. For some reason it really just felt quiet. And I was there during multiple street fairs. I'll have to think about what it is... some intangible quality. Maybe just the newness/cleanliness, coupled with something about the architecture? For some reason I've never really felt comfortable in a Canadian city outside of Montreal. It's probably just me, but Toronto and Vancouver feel rather, well, lifeless to me. I guess it's gotta be just some subjective quality that hits me a certain way.
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