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Oh sorry I forgot to put in the disclaimer... My bad.
Let us look into those verses you gave though.
Matt. 25:41;46
"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons." ; "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."
Isn't this a reference to Daniel? Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
What is disgrace and contempt? Is that the same as "lost forever?"
You said "All who die without Christ are lost forever. Jesus declared it with His own lips."
Yet he says ETERNAL PUNISHMENT... isn't that kolasis? Doesn't kolasis really mean CORRECTION? Why would anyone fear correction? Doesn't that mean the outcome is better than the beginning state?
And the other one you give as proof that "All who die without Christ are lost forever. Jesus declared it with His own lips."
Matt. 10:28 And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in Gehenna.
First, I used the YLT because it says "Gehenna" rather than "hell" which of course is what it really is... a proper noun, a specific place. But beyond that...Jesus is not declaring here that they are lost forever... Just destroyed, perish(able), RUINED.
In that age they burned criminals in Gehenna along with garbage. For it to be known that you died and burned in Gehenna was for your name to be RUINED... Your reputation is destroyed... and this is exactly what happened to those people who stayed in the city after Jesus told them to flee... their bodies were piled up and burned in Gehenna.
So perhaps you can show where "All who die without Christ are lost forever. Jesus declared it with His own lips."
ADDED: I know one thing that Jesus did say with his own lips....
"for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."
You miss the point in your rush to ape me.I understand ET theology.Those who claim that UR theology makes Christ unnecessary are showing ignorance of what they are saying about UR.That is what the question "can't you grasp that" was about.But don't let figuring that out stop you.We wouldn't want responses to be based on what someone actually said,now would we?
You are free to believe in whatever you want,including that God feels the need to eternally punish trillions of people if you wish.It says more about the people choosing to believe it than anything else.
Trust me, I know what UR is all about. I'm not buying into that heresy. I believe the Word of God and it's clear that hell is real. You deny scripture. It does say a lot about a person who believes in hell, they are following God's Word I'll be praying that God will open your eyes to His truth and not base truth on how it makes you feel. That's the common denominator between those who deny the existence of hell. It doesn't make me feel good so it must not be true. God does plenty of things in the Bible that doesn't make me feel good yet it still happened. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, it still happened! God continues to do things I don't understand and that's okay because I'm not Him!
It's so clear to me that Satan is trying to make those who believe the truth look like the idiots who are heartless because he knows it exists and wants to convince everyone else that it doesn't! Of course he doesn't want you to believe in hell. He is the deceiver after all. You don't understand this because Satan has blinded you. 2 Cor 4:4
Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 05-09-2010 at 01:10 AM..
I wasn't sure whether you believed that, or that we are responsible for our own salvation. Jesus' sacrifice isn't necessary if we can save ourselves by keeping our salvation, so I don't know why you think Jesus assuring everyone's salvation makes Him unnecessary.
You don't understand the Bible. Jesus is as necessary now as He was from the beginning of time and without Him, we would all be in hell. He is so worthy of my praise. He doesn't have to save all to be worthy of my praise unlike many universalists have said. He is Lord and I trust His plan.
Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 05-09-2010 at 01:15 AM..
Irrelevent. Univeralists make appeals to the emotions instead of facing the facts. How I feel about those who are lost has no bearing on the reality of the situation. But I lose no sleep over those who reject the truth and will end up in hell. They are entirely responsible for their eternal destruction. I present the truth and that's all I can do.
Wow, that's what I call a very hardened heart! Amazing. I see nothing in your posts or your beliefs that make me desire to know God. Those that are Christ's are said to be the SALT of the earth and the LIGHT of the world. All I sense when I read your posts is great darkness. I find it astonishing as well that you believe we all have free will and that most people will freely choose to be eternally tormented in hell or the lake of fire. I was raised on this kind of teaching and it made my soul sick for many years until God delivered me from the bondage of it. You can see anything you want to see in the bible. It is the condition of your heart that determines how you SEE. Even Jesus said to be CAREFUL HOW YOU HEAR.
This attitude misses the entire point of why Jesus died. Do you believe in once-saved-always-saved like Mike and many others do? You could say the very same thing about that. If OSAS is true, once you are going to heaven, Jesus isn't necessary anymore.
Yes, indeed. I love the "Wow, I could have had a V-8" smiley
I remember back when I was in the church circles how
all the various denominations condemned one another and how important
it was to the Baptists to teach their congregation Once Saved Always Saved to combat the holiness doctrines of those darn, Holy-Rollin' Pentecostals. What a circus! Speaking of circuses, I heard a study done by Gary Amirault about the word 'Circus' and how it is connected to the word 'Church' and the goddess known as 'Circe' who, in Greek mythology had the power to turn men into animals, specifically pigs. It seems that something within the realm of modern Christendom also demonstrates aspects of that same power. But I suspect it's not really modern since there is nothing new under the sun.
I understand some of the bible, and some of it I don't understand yet. But what I do understand is the one true and living God. I understand His perfect, holy, and divine nature. God is Love. Any interpretation that doesn't line up with his true character has to be examined to find out what the misinterpretation is. After I finally learned that, most of the bible that I didn't understand has been made perfectly clear, and the Holy Spirit is opening my eyes and heart more all the time.
All who die without Christ are lost forever. Jesus declared it with His own lips.
God will never lead anyone to believe something that is contrary to His written word. Those who deny the penalty of eternal punishment are under strong delusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
From God's standpoint all of humanity deserves the eternal lake of fire. And God would have been just in leaving everyone in condemnation. But He didn't. He provided a way to escape being sent to hell. If anyone refuses to take the way of escape that God provided, than they must spend eternity in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41,46.
Two responses to my post and yet you still did not address what I said.
Let me remind you of what Jesus DID say with his own lips:
Matthew 22:36-39
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38This is the first and greatest commandment.
39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
WHERE IS THE LOVE?
Your methods (which were also mine) do not work. It drives people away and puts God in a very bad light. God is love, Mike. God will be just in His punishment but all will be with Him in the end. That is wonderful news. That is what people need to hear about the gospel of Jesus Christ, that it IS indeed good news that He died for us to bridge that gap between ourselves and God. If people can feel the love that Christians have in their hearts then that is what will draw them to Christ, not scare tactics.
It does burden me that people are going to be eternally separated from God because they have rejected Him, but like Mike said it is their choice. That is why it is so important to tell about Jesus NOW, because they won't get another opportunity after this life is gone.
There is no point in crying over spilled milk. I pray for those who are still alive and have a chance to make the right decision.
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I'll be praying that God will open your eyes to His truth and not base truth on how it makes you feel. That's the common denominator between those who deny the existence of hell. It doesn't make me feel good so it must not be true. God does plenty of things in the Bible that doesn't make me feel good yet it still happened. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, it still happened! God continues to do things I don't understand and that's okay because I'm not Him!
