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the term hell suggests endless misery, death is not everlasting misery, if the wages of sin would be endless misery, how could have anybody paid that penalty?
so is the wages of sin actually death, or something unimaginably worse than death?, if the later, who could have paid that penalty? think about it
Yes and if the penalty for sin is death then when you die you have paid the penalty so there is no more punishment you can receive...
Ezek 18:2-4...
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine...
Jeremiah 31:30...
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Nothing I know of in Scripture teaches the passing on of sin to our offspring, i.e., the doctrine of "Original Sin" (another phrase that is NOT in the Bible, but is from Roman Catholic tradition.) There is something like original death going on, and "...sin reigns in [the domain of] death..." (Rm 5:21) In 2 Pet 1:4, it tells of God and His giving us, "...exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." "Corruption" is the decay of a corpse. This comes from death. "The wages of sin is death." Why do we lust in the first place? Because we are wanting something we do not have. What do we not have? Life. We are born lacking because we are born dying. Attempting to meet the need misses it's target and enlarges the death process.
The apostle, teaching about judgment and that it is not the hearers, but rather the doers of God's law that are justified, points out, "...the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands..." (Rm 2:14, CLT) I was raised with the opposite idea of my "nature." In fact, it went so far that, without a successful conversion experience, by default I was to be tortured ceaselessly for ever for just being born here. I started out damned for Adam's sin. My original nature was altogether evil. This is a horrible foundation in a child's life and is hard to be rid of later. That puts a real crimp in your love for yourself and the rest of mankind. One lives a life of God ordained dread and doom, the whole sense of self always under condemnation. Every human, no matter what age, is viewed with an evil eye. It really is the devil's lie. It was never taught that "by nature" I would do God's will, as Paul pointed to in the passage just quoted.
Scripture also teaches that sin is "against nature." (cf., Rm 2:26-27) The doctrine of "original sin" keeps millions of people believing humans are inherently evil when we are actually good. When we "do by nature the things written in the Law," and sin is when we "do those things against nature," this means, though fallen, man is still "good" if not "very good." ("The Fall" isn't actual Biblical terminology either.)
Through the things that are made, the creation (cf., Rm 1:20) and in our own selves (cf., Rm 1:19, 21-23) God has taught us of Himself and has even revealed Himself in us. This is spoken of those that do not have the knowledge in the written word. Paul is certainly not talking about the work of the spirit in the new birth; but, he speaks of the nature of those among the nations (or, gentiles) as they are born of Adam.
Augustine (354-430 AD) seems to be the source of the "original sin" teaching. It is largely based on taking David's statement about himself regarding adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband Nathan and applying it to everybody. The KJV illustrates that bias in translating it: "In sin did my mother conceive me." (Ps 51:5) Scripture nowhere says sexual intercourse is sin. Concordant Literal has: "Behold, I was with (lit., in) depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me." This is a difficult word, but it doesn't teach an inherently wicked nature is the lot of all humanity other than Jesus.
Another important source Augustine used was the following passage from Romans:
Romns 5:12-14 (CLT)...
12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned --
13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;
14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be.
But Paul did not say the sin of Adam was inherited by the rest of humanity. He says Adam died for his sin and that death spread to the rest of humanity. In fact, God's word goes on to say sin and death have no more dominion over humanity because of the victory over all destroying man by Jesus' death and resurrection bringing in a new humanity.
Romans 5:16-17 (CLT)...
16 And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the judgment is out of one into condemnation, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award.
17 For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
I understand what fundamentalist is trying to say. Which doesn't suprise me that the work-righteous crowd or God rewards me on my efforts crowd is the first to reply and or object to. Trying to be good, being good... isn't good enough.
There are no good people in heaven, God doesn't give you a "A" for trying.
Perfection is what is demanded...it has never been "try to be good for I will understand", "do all you can do, I'll do the rest", "if you don't first succeed, try again....later"
Leviticus 11:44
I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and beholy, because I am holy Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore beholy, because I am holy. Leviticus 20:26
You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy Matthew 5:48 Beperfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father isperfect.
That is the standard....be holy [present tense] be perfect [present tense]
Where does scripture say that God uses some scale that you have the ability to tip it in your favor?
Or where does it say that God uses a different standard just because your dead and now face to face with him?
Like so many here who ask a question with no other purpose than refute the answers they don't like....here's one for you...."there isn't"
"Overall good 'heathen atheist' person.
Hopefully.
-Or so she tries..."
June, whoever the second person is that you keep speaking as for you is fooling\lying to you.
It's going to be June who will be face to face with a perfect God, not June's intelligence or second person reference that can be used as an excuse.
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-28-2009 at 10:25 AM..
I understand what fundamentalist is trying to say. Which doesn't suprise me that the work-righteous crowd or God rewards me on my efforts crowd is the first to reply. Trying to be good, being good... isn't good enough.
There are no good people in heaven, God doesn't give you a "A" for trying.
Perfection is what is demanded...it has never been "try to be good for I will understand", "do all you can do, I'll do the rest", "if you don't first succeed, try again....later"
Leviticus 11:44
I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and beholy, because I am holy Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore beholy, because I am holy. Leviticus 20:26
You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy Matthew 5:48 Beperfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father isperfect.
That is the standard.
Where does scripture say that God uses some scale that you have the ability to tip it in your favor? Or where does it say that God uses a different standard just because your dead and now face to face?
"Overall good 'heathen atheist' person.
Hopefully.
-Or so she tries..."
June, whoever the second person that you keep speaking in the second is fooling\
lying to you.
Actually the lie will be you trying to prove you didn't damn yourself by the point you just made.
I understand what fundamentalist is trying to say. Which doesn't suprise me that the work-righteous crowd or God rewards me on my efforts crowd is the first to reply and or object to. Trying to be good, being good... isn't good enough.
There are no good people in heaven, God doesn't give you a "A" for trying.
Perfection is what is demanded...it has never been "try to be good for I will understand", "do all you can do, I'll do the rest", "if you don't first succeed, try again....later"
Leviticus 11:44
I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and beholy, because I am holy Leviticus 11:45
I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore beholy, because I am holy. Leviticus 20:26
You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy Matthew 5:48 Beperfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father isperfect.
That is the standard....be holy [present tense] be perfect [present tense]
Where does scripture say that God uses some scale that you have the ability to tip it in your favor?
Or where does it say that God uses a different standard just because your dead and now face to face with him?
Like so many here who ask a question with no other purpose than refute the answers they don't like....here's one for you...."there isn't"
"Overall good 'heathen atheist' person.
Hopefully.
-Or so she tries..."
June, whoever the second person is that you keep speaking as for you is fooling\lying to you.
It's going to be June who will be face to face with a perfect God, not June's intelligence or second person reference that can be used as an excuse.
Leviticus and its passages are under the veil of ignorance of the OT that Jesus came to remove. Matt 5:48 is simply an erroneous use of the Greek word for "mature."The Greek word τελειος (5046) translated as "perfect" actually means "mature." The various applications of τελειος are all referable to the τελος, which is its ground. In a natural sense the τελειοι are the adult, who, having attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power within their reach, have in these respects attained their τελος, as distinguished from the νεοι or παεδες, young men or boys.
June has nothing to worry about. Her spiritual maturity is evident.
Actually the lie will be you trying to prove you didn't damn yourself by the point you just made.
Actually that is the response I was expecting and hoping for.
Many don't understand the significance behind the OT Jews when they sacrifed a perfect lamb for their sins, that it covered the entire household, men, women and children. God considered them Holy.
And that same understanding is the reason Jesus is refered to as the "Lamb of God".
Yes, I say this very slowly and carefully, with the correct understanding........Yes, I'm perfect and have eternal life.. now.
Leviticus and its passages are under the veil of ignorance of the OT that Jesus came to remove. Matt 5:48 is simply an erroneous use of the Greek word for "mature."The Greek word τελειος (5046) translated as "perfect" actually means "mature." The various applications of τελειος are all referable to the τελος, which is its ground. In a natural sense the τελειοι are the adult, who, having attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power within their reach, have in these respects attained their τελος, as distinguished from the νεοι or παεδες, young men or boys.
June has nothing to worry about. Her spiritual maturity is evident.
No offense, I just am not going to prove the accuracy of KJV or NIV anymore or the Greek is understood a certian way different than what you like it to be. That isn't the issue.
The issue is tha God demands have never changed....no matter how smart, educated or sophisticated anybody thinks they are.
God holds unbelief as an unforgiveable sin accountable...period.
On my own, no. Thank God, through the shed blood of Jesus, on the day of Judgment, I will appear righteous before God!
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