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I am sure we are pretty much on the same page and this is just semantics separating us. My point is this: being law conscious does nothing to perfect me. The law is good, as Paul says, to let me know I am a sinner. It lets me know that I have fallen short. But the law cannot help me bridge that gap. Even when you narrow it down to Jesus' nutshell version of the law (love God first, love neighbor as self) I fall short, cause I can point to something everyday of my life where within 10 minutes of getting out of bed I loved myself first above God and neighbor.
I say the answer to sin that remains evident in my life is not to look at the law and try and measure up and do better, but to look at the law as a reminder that I am nothing on my own, that every good and perfect thing about me has its source in God alone. The law has nothing within it to perfect me, so why keep going to it as a source? The source for my perfection (most translations I have looked at use the term 'maturity' interchangeably with perfection, I like that term better) is Christ and Christ alone.
So to me it is semantics on one hand, but it is a huge differnce on another. When I fall short, I find that the quicker I come to Christ and repent and ask Him to change me from the inside out and KNOW that he loves me and receives me with open arms every time I come to Him, the more I stay on that path that Christ has called me to that Paul refers to in Phillipians ...pressing on toward the goal....
So, yes, I have a part in this. But I see my part as coming to Jesus warts and all, "just as I am" and not a mindset of going to the law to clean myself up and make myself presentable before I come into his presence.
Possibly we are speaking a similar language.
So, if i asked you, have you ever overcome a temptation to sin?
And if you have, did you make a conscious decision to do so, or did Jesus make you not sin?
So, if i asked you, have you ever overcome a temptation to sin?
And if you have, did you make a conscious decision to do so, or did Jesus make you not sin?
godspeed,
freedom
Sorry to say I can think of more times when I decided to put Jesus at arms length and willfully sinned instead of coming to him first. To come to him first is my goal and I believe a sign of maturity.
I will say that everytime I have come to him for strength to stand, he has never once failed me, so I would say the strength to stand came from him and that my part is to either stand with him or go to him or just be conscious of my position as his son and his love for me (the mind is the battlefield, right?).
My job is to keep my mind washed in his word and daily overcome. My battle might not look like yours. I would say my battle in its purest essence is do I really believe that God is good and that he really loves me? I know this without one iota of wavering on one plane, but on the emotional level, I find that this is a constant struggle. I have to go to his word and spend time in prayer and drown out all the other voices and experiences and rejections that want to tell me the opposite of this truth.
That is why I first commented on this thread about the law being exalted (or what seemed like it to me) if you see this as my battle. The law reminds me of my failure, reminds me that I don't measure up and when that is my focus I flounder. Maybe different people have different sources of motivation. Some might look at the law and be inspired to do better, sort of like the athletes that respond to a coach who berates them to do better. But some respond better to the tender voice that says, "that failure is ok, it has already been paid for, get up, move on and know that you can make it." (Not that a firm "go and sin no more" isn't an appropriate accompaniment to hear with such a word)
So, with the battlefield being my mind, my part in all this is to have my thoughts dwell on what is pure and noble and right. When my mind is in agreement and thinking on what God in his word says about me and my position with him, I find myself maturing. When my mind tends toward a position that it is my burden to make my ownself better by looking at the law, I see more often than I not, I throw my hands up in resignation and fail.
Sorry to say I can think of more times when I decided to put Jesus at arms length and willfully sinned instead of coming to him first. To come to him first is my goal and I believe a sign of maturity.
I will say that everytime I have come to him for strength to stand, he has never once failed me, so I would say the strength to stand came from him and that my part is to either stand with him or go to him or just be conscious of my position as his son and his love for me (the mind is the battlefield, right?).
My job is to keep my mind washed in his word and daily overcome. My battle might not look like yours. I would say my battle in its purest essence is do I really believe that God is good and that he really loves me? I know this without one iota of wavering on one plane, but on the emotional level, I find that this is a constant struggle. I have to go to his word and spend time in prayer and drown out all the other voices and experiences and rejections that want to tell me the opposite of this truth.
That is why I first commented on this thread about the law being exalted (or what seemed like it to me) if you see this as my battle. The law reminds me of my failure, reminds me that I don't measure up and when that is my focus I flounder. Maybe different people have different sources of motivation. Some might look at the law and be inspired to do better, sort of like the athletes that respond to a coach who berates them to do better. But some respond better to the tender voice that says, "that failure is ok, it has already been paid for, get up, move on and know that you can make it." (Not that a firm "go and sin no more" isn't an appropriate accompaniment to hear with such a word)
So, with the battlefield being my mind, my part in all this is to have my thoughts dwell on what is pure and noble and right. When my mind is in agreement and thinking on what God in his word says about me and my position with him, I find myself maturing. When my mind tends toward a position that it is my burden to make my ownself better by looking at the law, I see more often than I not, I throw my hands up in resignation and fail.
We are very close to being in complete agreement.
Renewing of the mind is such an incredible promise.
So i would put it to you, if one desired to seek First the kingdom of God and did the things you are saying and desiring, is there anything that God would not fulfill and complete?
Renewing of the mind is such an incredible promise.
So i would put it to you, if one desired to seek First the kingdom of God and did the things you are saying and desiring, is there anything that God would not fulfill and complete?
I go back to a simpler view, that God is loving and he is a father. I, too am a father and while my children aren't always what I want them to be, I love them and would not disinherit them or cast them out of my presence for not being what they could or should be. Instead, I discipline them in love.
If I can be this to my kids as imperfect as I am, how much more of a loving father is he to me, his son? (and please don't misinterpret, not talking about the universal "we are all God's children" simply because we are His creation, but a truly born-again by the blood of Jesus son of God). There is something in me that thinks we Christians are making this a lot more complicated than it is supposed to be.
This last post sort of smacks of that never can do it good enough feel with the IF highlighted so. Perhaps I am mistaking the intent of the poster, but I feel like some harsh judge summing up my life and telling me I didn't love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. But who outside of Jesus did this ALL the time with ALL their being? Isn't this why Jesus came and brought this message? That NONE of us can redeem ourselves by the law? That only He is the way, truth and life? Only He fulfilled the requirements of the law?
Oh, the law does weary me so........ Thank you Jesus for setting me free from it!
I go back to a simpler view, that God is loving and he is a father. I, too am a father and while my children aren't always what I want them to be, I love them and would not disinherit them or cast them out of my presence for not being what they could or should be. Instead, I discipline them in love.
yes, but when they become full grown and leave your home, their lives are governed by choice not nuturing.
You love them, but know that their choices in life can be a blessing or a curse.
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If I can be this to my kids as imperfect as I am, how much more of a loving father is he to me, his son? (and please don't misinterpret, not talking about the universal "we are all God's children" simply because we are His creation, but a truly born-again by the blood of Jesus son of God). There is something in me that thinks we Christians are making this a lot more complicated than it is supposed to be.
It is a dangerous position to assume that we will not be held accountable for how we live.
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This last post sort of smacks of that never can do it good enough feel with the IF highlighted so. Perhaps I am mistaking the intent of the poster, but I feel like some harsh judge summing up my life and telling me I didn't love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. But who outside of Jesus did this ALL the time with ALL their being? Isn't this why Jesus came and brought this message? That NONE of us can redeem ourselves by the law? That only He is the way, truth and life? Only He fulfilled the requirements of the law?
It's not so much about the redemption as it is the exaltation.
Take your loving father example: Do you desire your children to live up to their potential, do their best, love as much as they can, or just get by weak and uninspired by the glory of eternity, unable to grasp the power of love made available by their Heavenly Father?
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Oh, the law does weary me so........ Thank you Jesus for setting me free from it!
The law is easy when the principles of love and Christ are desired. The law is a basic, not even an issue.
The scribes and pharisees had difficulty with it, because their hearts were hard, and their eyes were single to their own glory, not God's.
Jesus lived the law, and He did it in joy and power. He fulfilled it by the higher truths of Love, faith, Joy etc... attributes that the Jewish leaders lost in their high seat positions and self importance.
It is a dangerous position to assume that we will not be held accountable for how we live.
I have to apply the concept that - even during maturation - we are seen as little children. (Mat 18:3)
To pick up on Saintmark's comments about his own relationship with his children, I'm sure that if his child (no matter the age) was in front of a bus, Saintmark would do all in his power to pull the child from harm. It's no stretch to see God doing the same.
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Originally Posted by freedom
Take your loving father example: Do you desire your children to live up to their potential, do their best, love as much as they can, or just get by weak and uninspired by the glory of eternity, unable to grasp the power of love made available by their Heavenly Father?
We shouldn't underestimate the Author and Finisher of our faith...
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Originally Posted by freedom
Jesus lived the law, and He did it in joy and power. He fulfilled it by the higher truths of Love, faith, Joy etc... attributes that the Jewish leaders lost in their high seat positions and self importance.
But Jesus lived by the Father,and that is the issue with us. The law applies to us as long as we are in the flesh. (Rom 7:1) The law of the spirit fulfills the law of the flesh.
Thanks Elmer, you expressed my thoughts better than I did. I think the argument here (probably a less strong word than argument could be found) is this:
Did Jesus come solely to live the law as an example of the way we should live?
OR
Did Jesus come to fulfill the law that we could never begin to fulfill and by his sacrifice impute that righteousness into us?
I wish I could remember the pastor who said that when grace is preached to its fullest extent, there will be those who will accuse you of liscense. (I know he said it much better than that). I still sense that tone in the postings here, agreement that we are saved by grace, but then we still have to uphold the law to be matured.
As I age (hopefully maturing as I age) the more I realize that it is Christ in me that helps me to do anything that would be good works. I am realizing that the more that I die to self and simply trust in Him and his word, the more I WANT my life and my actions to line up with the law. But if I look to the law and try to live it out, the more I am aware of my failure.
So, law minded or Jesus minded? The goal is the same, but I find I move closer and faster to that goal when I leave the law behind and look only to Jesus.
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