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You see this problem quite often where 'hell' believers take any number of words and assume them to mean a place of endless punishment in fire.
HELL EUPHEMISMS
'hell' = dante's inferno, conscious torment in fire
'fire' = hell
'lake of fire' = hell
'death' = you are going to hell
'judgment' = sent to hell
'condemn' = sent to hell
'wrath' = sent to hell
'sin' = you deserve hell
'justice' = you deserve hell
'holiness' = God must send you to hell
'love' = but He still sends you to hell
'truth' = you are destined for hell
With this lens, you literally read 'hell' everywhere in the bible. This is a very juvenile and barbaric understanding, and you are missing out on the real meaning of many scriptures if you don't progress beyond this.
More foolishness. Show me in scripture where it says sin is infinite.
To the contrary, the wages of sin is death.
God's anger lasts only for a moment, but His mercy endures forever.
Since we already know from both Scripture and Tradition that hell is real and eternal, we must surmise that certain sins must merit infinite punishment since God is perfectly Just. We can only conclude, therefore, that the gravity of certain sins must be infinite.
Punishment is proportionate to sin. Now sin comprises two things. First, there is the turning away from the immutable good, which is infinite, wherefore, in this respect, sin is infinite. Secondly, there is the inordinate turning to mutable good. In this respect sin is finite, both because the mutable good itself is finite, and because the movement of turning towards it is finite, since the acts of a creature cannot be infinite. Accordingly, in so far as sin consists in turning away from something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of loss," which also is infinite, because it is the loss of the infinite good, i.e. God. But in so far as sin turns inordinately to something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of sense," which is also finite...
Now a sin which is committed against God, is infinite: because the gravity of a sin increases according to the greatness of the person sinned against (thus it is a more grievous sin to strike the sovereign than a private individual), and God's greatness is infinite. Therefore an infinite punishment is due for a sin committed against God.
Since we already know from both Scripture and Tradition that hell is real and eternal, we must surmise that certain sins must merit infinite punishment since God is perfectly Just. We can only conclude, therefore, that the gravity of certain sins must be infinite.
Punishment is proportionate to sin. Now sin comprises two things. First, there is the turning away from the immutable good, which is infinite, wherefore, in this respect, sin is infinite. Secondly, there is the inordinate turning to mutable good. In this respect sin is finite, both because the mutable good itself is finite, and because the movement of turning towards it is finite, since the acts of a creature cannot be infinite. Accordingly, in so far as sin consists in turning away from something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of loss," which also is infinite, because it is the loss of the infinite good, i.e. God. But in so far as sin turns inordinately to something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of sense," which is also finite.
This is an argument from "tradition" and ignorance.
You are saying "I don't know what good is but God does, so it must be justice that some should be punished infinitely by God". Foolishness. There are many scriptures that show God's justice as paying the last penny, and being judged according to works. There is a scale of retribution and correction. Some are even going to be punished more than Sodom, and even Sodom will be restored one day.
Infinite punishment is not GOOD because it serves no purpose. Finite punishment is always for some purpose because something can be learned and correction can take place. Therefore progress can be made towards becoming good.
Not so with infinite punishment. It is purposeless except for inflicting endless suffering.
It is nothing less that infinite torture. It is evil plain and simple.
If you cannot see this, then you have no idea what goodness is.
You see this problem quite often where 'hell' believers take any number of words and assume them to mean a place of endless punishment in fire.
HELL EUPHEMISMS
'hell' = dante's inferno, conscious torment in fire
'fire' = hell
'lake of fire' = hell
'death' = you are going to hell
'judgment' = sent to hell
'condemn' = sent to hell
'wrath' = sent to hell
'sin' = you deserve hell
'justice' = you deserve hell
'holiness' = God must send you to hell
'love' = but He still sends you to hell
'truth' = you are destined for hell
With this lens, you literally read 'hell' everywhere in the bible. This is a very juvenile and barbaric understanding, and you are missing out on the real meaning of many scriptures if you don't progress beyond this.
This is an argument from "tradition" and ignorance.
Why do you object to arguing from tradition? What else would you have us to argue from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
You are saying "I don't know what good is but God does, so it must be justice that some should be punished infinitely by God".
I'm not saying that at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Foolishness. There are many scriptures that show God's justice as paying the last penny, and being judged according to works. There is a scale of retribution and correction. Some are even going to be punished more than Sodom, and even Sodom will be restored one day.
Infinite punishment is not GOOD because it serves no purpose. Finite punishment is always for some purpose because something can be learned and correction can take place. Therefore progress can be made towards becoming good.
Not so with infinite punishment. It is purposeless except for inflicting endless suffering.
It is nothing less that infinite torture. It is evil plain and simple.
If sin never ceases, then the punishment would never have reason to cease. On what basis can you presume that an unrepentant sinner can turn from his sin after death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
If you cannot see this, then you have no idea what goodness is.
Well that settles it then. I guess you just know more about "goodness" than Aquinas and all of the Saints and Doctors of the Church
Why do you object to arguing from tradition? What else would you have us to argue from?
Scripture.
Quote:
I'm not saying that at all.
If sin never ceases, then the punishment would never have reason to cease. On what basis can you presume that an unrepentant sinner can turn from his sin after death?
So now you say sin never ceases - what a victory for Christ that you believe in.
Christ came to take away the sin of the world. Except for the 90% who continue to sin forever? Jesus couldn't take their sin away?
Scripture tells us death is defeated, it has no victory... except for the 90% who keep sinning forever...?
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (sin)... except for all that sin that lasts into eternity...
Quote:
Well that settles it then. I guess you just know more about "goodness" than Aquinas and all of the Saints and Doctors of the Church
At this point I have to say yes. If you don't understand how eternal suffering is bad...
Are you familiar with empathy?
And this is what an Aquinas Theocracy would have in it.
On the part of the Church ... there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
(S.T., Second Part of the Second Part, Question 11, Article 3)
Sounds very Christ-like, don't ya think?
"Aquinas says nothing that I can find to indicate that he considers any particular heresies less noxious than others; I'd have to conclude that Aquinas believes that any heretic (and he would probably count those professing Protestant beliefs as heretics) should be given an opportunity to recant; but failing that, they should be handed over to the State to be put to death."~Matt Gutting
Why do you object to arguing from tradition? What else would you have us to argue from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Scripture.
Scripture is a tradition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
So now you say sin never ceases - what a victory for Christ that you believe in.
Human nature never ceases. Free will is an essential part of human nature. In destroying sin, Christ does not annihilate human nature or transform a human into something other than human.
We have no reason to presume that a man's will to sin can be altered after death.
And this is what an Aquinas theocracy would have in it.
On the part of the Church ... there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
(S.T., Second Part of the Second Part, Question 11, Article 3)
Sounds very Christ-like, don't ya think?
Yes.
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