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Well, apparently you'll need to exclude me from the category of "intellectuals" because I have no idea what she's saying either.
Truly, I HOPE that God's plan for unbelievers includes some less gruesome eternity than Hell. If it doesn't, some of my nearest and dearest are going to be damned. The problem is, I don't have the perspective of the eternal and transcendent, perfectly holy, supremely wise, supremely loving, supremely just Creator of all that exists. I accept that I am in no position to judge whether the damnation of unbelievers is consistent with perfect holiness and supreme wisdom, love and justice. I can only trust that it is. If I want to start reinventing God to fit my idea of what he ought to be like or what would make me happy, then I'm really just worshipping an idol.
Dear Nerf, with words like "clearly" you should clearly have zero problem with reading the Old Baptist brother Robertson. Or, perhaps it is the equation presented by St. Paul regarding the first & Last Adam. Is the words of Eph. 1 to difficult for you?
There is "clearly" no need to reinvent God to what you or any of us desire!
From Him the all, through Him the all, in Him the all
Yes Nerf, our God is "clearly" the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all.
"..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes."
Dear Nerf, with words like "clearly" you should clearly have zero problem with reading the Old Baptist brother Robertson. Or, perhaps it is the equation presented by St. Paul regarding the first & Last Adam. Is the words of Eph. 1 to difficult for you?
There is "clearly" no need to reinvent God to what you or any of us desire!
From Him the all, through Him the all, in Him the all
Yes Nerf, our God is "clearly" the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all.
"..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes."
The problem - and I won't keep beating a dead horse because I understand you're wedded to your belief in Universalism - is that reliance on things like the "first Adam, second Adam" verse is proof-texting at its finest. Literally legions of the finest Bible scholars going back to the earliest days of Christianity have not understood this verse (or any others) to be a reference to Universalism. But that's just the tip of the iceberg: While relying on isolated verses such as this, you're forced to ignore huge swaths of the NT. The entire Christian message would simply make no sense if Universalism were true. Based on a fair reading of the Bible, the legitimate debate is not over whether Universalism might be true but rather "Is salvation perhaps far more limited than even most orthodox Christians would like to believe?" The salvation of comparatively very few is, unlike Universalism, a doctrine that can be legitimately supported with strong verses not taken out of context - hence Calvinism.
Truly, I will be delighted if Universalism proves to be true. As an orthodox Christian, however, I recognize that it is wishful thinking and not something that can be biblically supported.
Jesus spoke about people going into hell in terms much more severe than wishing for a glass of ice water .
He spoke of it as the destruction of their very " soul " :
" And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul , but rather fear him which is
able to destroy soul and body in hell . " ( Matthew 10:28 )
Until we here on earth come to belief in Jesus we are " lost souls " but we do have them .
If what you say is true concerning those in hell going to heaven then according to Jesus's Word they are given brand new souls to replace the souls they were born with which Jesus has said will be " destroyed " in hell .
The replacement of a destroyed soul in conjunction with extraction from hell would be a greater salvation than has ever happened on the earth .
Why would Jesus specifically speak of the very " destruction " of the soul in hell , but never mention being given a new soul in hell ?
The Jesus you know may practice this type of shell game salvation telling only of the "destroyed " soul , offering no assurance to the loved ones left behind concerning replacement of the destroyed soul .
The Jesus of Blessed assurance that I know would never be that cruel .
I would not want to meet the Jesus you know in a dark alley .
The problem - and I won't keep beating a dead horse because I understand you're wedded to your belief in Universalism - is that reliance on things like the "first Adam, second Adam" verse is proof-texting at its finest. Literally legions of the finest Bible scholars going back to the earliest days of Christianity have not understood this verse (or any others) to be a reference to Universalism. But that's just the tip of the iceberg: While relying on isolated verses such as this, you're forced to ignore huge swaths of the NT. The entire Christian message would simply make no sense if Universalism were true. Based on a fair reading of the Bible, the legitimate debate is not over whether Universalism might be true but rather "Is salvation perhaps far more limited than even most orthodox Christians would like to believe?" The salvation of comparatively very few is, unlike Universalism, a doctrine that can be legitimately supported with strong verses not taken out of context - hence Calvinism.
Truly, I will be delighted if Universalism proves to be true. As an orthodox Christian, however, I recognize that it is wishful thinking and not something that can be biblically supported.
I believe that the idea that we will reap exactly what we sow is straightforward enough. It does not mention God doing anything just us. What better way to correct one's understanding of the evil wrought than to experience it oneself to foster true and sincere repentance.
Nerfball I really respect your integrity. You make an extremely compelling case...most of which I already agree with. Its so hard to for me to make a cohesive case while covering every caveat to avoid being misunderstood. So I will address your reply, which I am honored by incidentally, by section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball
Your posts, kindly and eloquent as they may be, reflect a complete misunderstanding of orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity acknowledges that there are and always have been many wonderful people by the world's standards of wonderfulness. Many non-Christians are far "better" people than I am. THIS ISN'T THE ISSUE AT ALL. If it were, there would have been no point to Jesus' life and death and no reason for Christianity to exist. We'd all just be judged according to our degree of wonderfulness.
I am not sure the kind of radical forgiveness detailed in the examples is possible apart from Gods grace. I am not asserting people are forgiving other people into heaven. I am asserting that if God is bringing about such radical forgiveness towards such despicable people in this life, it is morally, logically, and scripturally incoherent that other such people would not be afforded forgiveness in the next life. Totally undeserved mind you and quite likely (heres what I forgot to include) after some form and duration of adequate hell judgement.
Orthodox Christianity says none of this matters. ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. None are holy or worthy of entrance into God's holy kingdom. The Bible could not be more clear that entrance into God's holy kingdom requires both acceptance of his offer of salvation through Christ AND continuation on that path. If Universalism were true, huge swaths of the NT would make no sense at all.
I fully concur with the premise here. Please understand this is not meant to eliminate hell but to truncate it, which I know you will still disagree with and I respect that. But I want you to know exactly where I stand so you will not say I am erasing hell.
More to the point, to posit Universalism one must flatly reject a multitude of clear and unequivocal biblical teachings as understood by 2000+ years of believers, saints, theologians and scholars. How does one do this and yet claim a doctrine such as Universalism is biblical? One simply cannot. This reality of condemnation for a large swath of humanity is so clearly and unequivocally set forth in the Bible and church history that it cannot reasonably be considered debatable.
Not so fast. Augustine testified, as other threads here feature, that in his day “indeed very many” ascribed to Universalism. He disagreed and that disagreement most certainly won out over Universalism in regards to prevalent Christian doctrine. But Augustine conceded that those who adhered to it HAD NOT departed from the scripture. Do you realize the weight of that assessment? Augustine refused to say they were heretics. He called them “soft” but never heretics. I for one would consider it an honor to be called “soft” by the man who wrote a doctrinal justification of righteous persecution of heretics. That very systematic persecution he endorsed which was enforced by the Catholic Church may very well have eliminated the previous prevalence of Universalism. It certainly established predestination. So with all due respect your zeal is getting out ahead of your facts. I highly recommend a historical refresher here
Orthodox Christians do not "demand" eternal punishment for sinners. The Bible and Jesus in particular explicitly TEACH it.
Well I can understand why you would think that the bible teaches it, but in my extensive observation of the authoritative rebuttals to Universalism, protesting the abdication of eternal justice is one of the most common philosophical themes out there from proponents of Eternal Torment.
To attempt to eradicate the doctrine of Hell to make orthodox Christianity more palatable to modern ears does a GREAT disservice both to Christianity and to those foolish enough to listen to you. If orthodox Christianity is true, you are playing games with peoples' eternal destinies.
I can understand the assumptions you might imagine about me. But the fact is I am anything but appeasing to modern liberal sensitivities or popular cultural. For instance I am unaccepting of any LGBTQ moralities or spiritualities. I am staunchly pro life and I acknowledge every standard of biblical morality you could imagine. I feel silly saying that because it risks sounding like Im value signaling but I am so tired to being pigeon holed with all sorts of undeserved assumptions about my version of Christianity I am forced to put up some bonafides because of back-handed assertions such as yours.
I am not trying to make Christianity more palatable. The only way anyone can receive the truth of the gospel is by the Holy Spirit revealing it to their heart. So my job is to identify truth as I see it. I let the Spirit do the rest.
My primary concern is not how the world sees the gospel as how the Church represents it and what those representations actually do to add toxicity our personal spirit.
Your argument is not even a reasoned one. It boils down to little more than (as these sorts of arguments always do) to "I just can't believe it. I just can't believe God would be that way. That's not what I would do if I were God."
Nope. It boils down to orphaned scriptures which NEVER get incorporated into prevalent doctrines but which are so striking that they demand an explanation. I Tim 4:10, 1 Cor 15:22, Romans 5:18, Romans 11:32
If you want to preach a New Age religion in which Universalism features prominently - please, feel free to do so. You'll have plenty of company. But be honest enough not to try to cloak your religion in the garb of orthodox Christianity. At least admit you are on the far fringes and are preaching a doctrine that is almost universally (pun intended) condemned as heresy.
More broad brush ad hominem judgements based on what you think you know about me. New Age. Thats funny. Never in my 30 years of pulpit ministry has anyone ever said I sound new age. Your just slinging mud now.
I could put forth a plausible-sounding alternative to all sorts of troubling Christian doctrines and biblical passages. Orthodox Christianity is in many respects counterintuitive and challenging. This is one of the reasons (among many) that I believe it is true. When it starts sounding like "just what humans would have invented (or would want to be the case)," I know we are no longer dealing with real Christianity.
Well Im glad you find my argument plausible. That sounds like progress.
Last edited by PastorMark; 06-26-2019 at 11:14 PM..
The problem - and I won't keep beating a dead horse because I understand you're wedded to your belief in Universalism - is that reliance on things like the "first Adam, second Adam" verse is proof-texting at its finest. Literally legions of the finest Bible scholars going back to the earliest days of Christianity have not understood this verse (or any others) to be a reference to Universalism. But that's just the tip of the iceberg: While relying on isolated verses such as this, you're forced to ignore huge swaths of the NT. The entire Christian message would simply make no sense if Universalism were true. Based on a fair reading of the Bible, the legitimate debate is not over whether Universalism might be true but rather "Is salvation perhaps far more limited than even most orthodox Christians would like to believe?" The salvation of comparatively very few is, unlike Universalism, a doctrine that can be legitimately supported with strong verses not taken out of context - hence Calvinism.
Truly, I will be delighted if Universalism proves to be true. As an orthodox Christian, however, I recognize that it is wishful thinking and not something that can be biblically supported.
Dear Nerf: over 62 years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ took me unto Himself: I am exclusively wedded to Him & the Father of all fathers!
The Restitution of all, spoken from the earliest ages thru the prophets, encompasses far, far more than individual salvation. It extends to dramatic change and transformation in the heavens, the earth, and the underworld! "Behold I create all things new" sums up in 6 words what the Restitution of the all encompasses.
The fact is, Nerf, Our God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, not some of mankind, not a few select few of mankind, our God is the Saviour of the radical all (including Calvinists).
"This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance. To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all mankind, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things"
Jesus spoke about people going into hell in terms much more severe than wishing for a glass of ice water .
He spoke of it as the destruction of their very " soul " :
" And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul , but rather fear him which is
able to destroy soul and body in hell . " ( Matthew 10:28 )
Until we here on earth come to belief in Jesus we are " lost souls " but we do have them .
If what you say is true concerning those in hell going to heaven then according to Jesus's Word they are given brand new souls to replace the souls they were born with which Jesus has said will be " destroyed " in hell .
The replacement of a destroyed soul in conjunction with extraction from hell would be a greater salvation than has ever happened on the earth .
Why would Jesus specifically speak of the very " destruction " of the soul in hell , but never mention being given a new soul in hell ?
The Jesus you know may practice this type of shell game salvation telling only of the "destroyed " soul , offering no assurance to the loved ones left behind concerning replacement of the destroyed soul .
The Jesus of Blessed assurance that I know would never be that cruel .
I would not want to meet the Jesus you know in a dark alley .
To portray the Son of God as one who teaches of the " destruction " of the soul in hell , but offers not one word for the hope of a soul replacement taking place in hell is to portray Jesus as a liar & deceiver .
This teaching of Jesus as a liar , deceiver and teacher lies is the spirit of deceit ascending from hell coming from the father of lies .
To portray the Son of God as one who teaches of the " destruction " of the soul in hell , but offers not one word for the hope of a soul replacement taking place in hell is to portray Jesus as a liar & deceiver .
This teaching of Jesus as a liar , deceiver and teacher lies is the spirit of deceit ascending from hell coming from the father of lies .
Good grief U.P. you need to run as fast as your little legs will carry you and find a new experience in the Glorious One, otherwise known in the most intimate term as Abba!!
" And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul , but rather fear him which is
able to destroy soul and body in hell . " ( Matthew 10:28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
Good grief U.P. you need to run as fast as your little legs will carry you and find a new experience in the Glorious One, otherwise known in the most intimate term as Abba!!
What part of the " Glorious One's " teaching on destruction of the " soul in hell " do you consider to be not accurate ?
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