Universalism revealed in radical forgiveness (crucified, tradition, Gospel, hell)
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A holocaust survivor embraces the Nazi who 70 years ago conducted cruel and demented experiments on her as a child. 1
The wife of a missionary returns to share the gospel with the primitive jungle tribe that brutally murdered her husband who once shared Christ with them.2
A pastor whose wife and infant daughter were killed by a drunk driver asks for a diminished sentence for the offender and has built a life long friendship with him. 3
A Rwandan woman’s entire family was wiped out during one of the worst genocides in history. She forgave the men who committed the atrocity and wrote a book that has spurred national healing and reconciliation in the aftermath.3
What do all these scenarios have in common? They are some shining examples of radical forgiveness under circumstances very few of us could manage to bear gracefully let alone survive with our faith intact.
Nazis, warlords, drunk drivers and the like are the poster children of why justice is required of sinners. Their deeds are such that for such things to go unpunished would seem an offense against the very notion of justice itself.
Yet where did these heroic people get the the inner power to extend such radical forgiveness? Who else but God could provide such grace? To befriend the man whose irresponsible drunkenness cost the lives of the two most precious people in your life is almost unthinkable. Yet we who are informed in the heart and mission of the Messiah cannot help but admire it. We know intrinsically this must be the power of Gods love at work in a persons heart.
However have we stopped to consider that this woman who was killed had a mother and father. How do they feel about this forgiveness? Does it represent an affront to their sense of justice for their daughter? Is the daughters life dishonored by her husbands forgiveness of this man?
What about Elizabeth Elliott (in case you had not figured it out) who went back to share Christ with the very tribes that murdered her husband. Where is the justice for that mans mother and father? It’s one thing for Mrs. Elliott to forgive them but what does that say about the damage done to them having lost their son? One could argue that this radical forgiveness dishonored their deserved justice.
And yet still there is the Rwandan genocide. So many countless people died and yet the nation is beginning to heal due to the work of a woman who forgave the men that slaughtered her family.
It is in these astonishing and transformative accounts we begin to see the unfolding of a great human mystery being unlocked by a divine hand. Perhaps the grand secret to saving humanity from its own depravity is not the destruction of evil doers, but the destruction of the the evil that is within in them through love.
As it is written, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Yet the most ardent disciples of Christianity who would celebrate these accounts themselves demand that harsh and interminable justice be done in the afterlife. Sinners must burn in hell forever because anything less is an affront to justice and the ones who suffered because of their depravity. This is a primary argument for why endless punishment is the only possibility for sinners. Yet when we read those stories we applaud these heroes of grace and we pray that somehow our own hearts could become half as strong in grace as theirs. The very ones who set aside justice to forgive the unforgivable. The very ones who despite the damage done to those who also loved those who were tortured and murdered chose the path of forgiveness instead of justice when the entire world would have understood and appreciated if they had asked for death to the offenders.
But God was accomplishing something truly rare and precious in their hearts. His will was being done on earth as it is in heaven. Nowhere had his kingdom come more powerfully and present than in the hearts of these who laid down all rights to justice and chose to say “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
So now we must turn the tables on the demand for eternal punishment for sinners. Do we think that God would so dishonor those whose lives had so shined with the grace of Christ in radical forgiveness by sending their offenders to hell forever anyway? How could those forgiven on earth not be forgiven in heaven without dishonoring the love of those on earth who sacrificed so much to forgive them?
Furthermore, how can God not forgive those who were forgiven on earth when it was His own grace and spirit inspiring the forgiveness? Was it not Christ in them performing this forgiveness? Why then would Christ express forgiveness through our hearts on earth only to hold unforgiveness towards the same people in the afterlife?
It is at that point the familiar argument arises, God must judge people forever or else it would be an affront to justice. Well it would seem God has been affronting justice a lot through history by allowing sinners to be transformed by forgiveness.
Forgiveness destroys hate and evil. Was it not Jesus who said that the one who is forgiven much loves much?
So what is Gods goal? To judge the sin and destroy the sinner, or to forgive the sin and change the sinner?
It is impossible to look at the stories of radical forgiveness and conclude it is the working of a God who will send sinners to hell forever. Love does not require justice like we do.
Love has every reason to be more hurt and offended than we are yet love chooses to radically forgive. In this life or the next life there is no reason why God would not continue to forgive sinners and liberate them from the evil within.
Man made artificial deadlines on grace only serve to prop up human ideas and set themselves against the beautiful history of radical forgiveness to likes of Saul of Tarsus, John Newton, Nikki Cruz, and others.
These questions defy the simplistic and defiant assertions that Gods love could be so arbitrary and contradictory to mysteriously close off the sinner when brain waves and heart beats cease.
This leaves us with one great question. Where does Gods love for the sinner go when they die? Traditional Western theology teaches us it was once there but upon death it somehow evaporates.
But the testimonies of such radical, sacrificial, Christlike, cross bearing forgiveness seem to gently insist something else is true besides the contradiction we have held to.
The sinner may die, but mercy will not. For mercy already died for the sinner and mercy will never die again.
As it is written, “Give thanks to the Lord for He is good, His mercies endureth forever.”
Dear PastorMark: You are on a roll. Radical forgiveness escapes the thinking, and scope, of those who think justice must prevail.
“To be able, in any way, to benefit, interest, or even amuse any of the weary beings that toil their way through this ‘vale of tears,’ whether our efforts are known and appreciated or not;. . . to have it in our power to wipe one tear from the cheek of the despondent, to cast one ray of light upon the haggard features of misery. . . The bare idea of its possibility has guilded the dark images of life with a glow which they never wore before.” Julia Kinney Scott
God Justice=
"Also unto thee, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."
This is a post I can get behind. Very nice Pastor Mark.
Whenever possible even on a small verse...could you put where it comes from, thanks.
(Sometimes you have, I saw. And thanks for those times.)
A holocaust survivor embraces the Nazi who 70 years ago conducted cruel and demented experiments on her as a child. …
Your posts, kindly and eloquent as they may be, reflect a complete misunderstanding of orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity acknowledges that there are and always have been many wonderful people by the world's standards of wonderfulness. Many non-Christians are far "better" people than I am. THIS ISN'T THE ISSUE AT ALL. If it were, there would have been no point to Jesus' life and death and no reason for Christianity to exist. We'd all just be judged according to our degree of wonderfulness.
Orthodox Christianity says none of this matters. ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. None are holy or worthy of entrance into God's holy kingdom. The Bible could not be more clear that entrance into God's holy kingdom requires both acceptance of his offer of salvation through Christ AND continuation on that path. If Universalism were true, huge swaths of the NT would make no sense at all.
More to the point, to posit Universalism one must flatly reject a multitude of clear and unequivocal biblical teachings as understood by 2000+ years of believers, saints, theologians and scholars. How does one do this and yet claim a doctrine such as Universalism is biblical? One simply cannot. This reality of condemnation for a large swath of humanity is so clearly and unequivocally set forth in the Bible and church history that it cannot reasonably be considered debatable.
Orthodox Christians do not "demand" eternal punishment for sinners. The Bible and Jesus in particular explicitly TEACH it.
To attempt to eradicate the doctrine of Hell to make orthodox Christianity more palatable to modern ears does a GREAT disservice both to Christianity and to those foolish enough to listen to you. If orthodox Christianity is true, you are playing games with peoples' eternal destinies.
Your argument is not even a reasoned one. It boils down to little more than (as these sorts of arguments always do) to "I just can't believe it. I just can't believe God would be that way. That's not what I would do if I were God."
If you want to preach a New Age religion in which Universalism features prominently - please, feel free to do so. You'll have plenty of company. But be honest enough not to try to cloak your religion in the garb of orthodox Christianity. At least admit you are on the far fringes and are preaching a doctrine that is almost universally (pun intended) condemned as heresy.
I could put forth a plausible-sounding alternative to all sorts of troubling Christian doctrines and biblical passages. Orthodox Christianity is in many respects counterintuitive and challenging. This is one of the reasons (among many) that I believe it is true. When it starts sounding like "just what humans would have invented (or would want to be the case)," I know we are no longer dealing with real Christianity.
Your posts, kindly and eloquent as they may be, reflect a complete misunderstanding of orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity acknowledges that there are and always have been many wonderful people by the world's standards of wonderfulness. Many non-Christians are far "better" people than I am. THIS ISN'T THE ISSUE AT ALL. If it were, there would have been no point to Jesus' life and death and no reason for Christianity to exist. We'd all just be judged according to our degree of wonderfulness.
Orthodox Christianity says none of this matters. ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. None are holy or worthy of entrance into God's holy kingdom. The Bible could not be more clear that entrance into God's holy kingdom requires both acceptance of his offer of salvation through Christ AND continuation on that path. If Universalism were true, huge swaths of the NT would make no sense at all.
Dear Nerf: Orthodox Christianity has missed "huge swaths" of the ultimate purpose of God in Christ Jesus, the Lord! They behold every knee bowing, and every tongue confessing "at" the sound of His Name. The problem is this: that acclamation is IN/EN the Name of all names, not at the sound of His Name.
No point in Jesus death?? Good grief Nerf!: the polus of mankind "made sinners" in Adam 1 are the identical polus made righteous in the Last Adam, the Saviour of ALL mankind. The mass of sinners are the mass "made righteous", every last broken wreck, "made righteous"!!!
Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld IN antiphonal worship
You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures=
Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes."
"The quoting of other people: antiphonal......pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw,..... earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh.... If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off."
Huh?
I don't know what's being said.
I am so turned off to this conversation...it means diddly to me. Greek.
So have at it, intellectuals. You lost me!
Last edited by Miss Hepburn; 06-26-2019 at 03:56 PM..
"The quoting of other people: antiphonal......pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw,..... earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh.... If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off."
Huh?
I don't know what's being said.
I am so turned off to this conversation...it means diddly to me. Greek.
So have at it, intellectuals. You lost me!
Well, apparently you'll need to exclude me from the category of "intellectuals" because I have no idea what she's saying either.
Truly, I HOPE that God's plan for unbelievers includes some less gruesome eternity than Hell. If it doesn't, some of my nearest and dearest are going to be damned. The problem is, I don't have the perspective of the eternal and transcendent, perfectly holy, supremely wise, supremely loving, supremely just Creator of all that exists. I accept that I am in no position to judge whether the damnation of unbelievers is consistent with perfect holiness and supreme wisdom, love and justice. I can only trust that it is. If I want to start reinventing God to fit my idea of what he ought to be like or what would make me happy, then I'm really just worshipping an idol.
The doctrine of Hell is simply too clear in the Bible to be flushed. Universalism is too obviously what people would like to believe to be trusted. Universalism has been condemned as heresy throughout the history of Christianity. We can all HOPE that something like Universalism is true, but we have NO basis for believing that it is. Universalists do what heretics always do: (1) they ignore the mountain of biblical teaching to the contrary; (2) they engage in proof-texting, meaning they cherry-pick isolated verses out of context to make their case; and (3) they appeal to human emotion, meaning they offer what most people would prefer to believe.
From Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism to tens of thousands of Protestant denominations, Christianity has been analyzed and debated by the very best minds in philosophy and theology. Universalism has never achieved the status of anything other than a fringe heresy. When an internet poster says something like "Orthodox Christianity has missed 'huge swaths' of the ultimate purpose of God in Christ Jesus, the Lord!" - well, sorry, but I'll go with 2000+ years of history, tradition and scholarship and my own reading of the clear and unequivocal biblical passages.
Like I always say about dubious doctrines, "If what you say were true, don't you believe that a doctrine that critical and startling would have been made ABSOLUTELY CLEAR in the NT?" In this instance, what is absolutely clear is the precise opposite.
So I HOPE, with no basis for hoping. And, given the potential consequences, I would certainly never tell anyone else to bank on this dubious hope. Hope as I do - but bank on what the Bible clearly says and Christians have always believed.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.
Gal 5:24 But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.
Allows for mercy to be shown to all
But all in their own time
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
1Co 15:24 Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
1Co 15:26 the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
1Pe 4:5 who will give account to Him having readiness to judge the living and dead.
1Pe 4:6 For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit.
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And thanks for those times.)
You lost me!
LOL