Nailing Down The Truth About Hell (Gomorrah, Sodom, myth, believe)
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Hello Heartsong, what I sense is first you have to forgive every one that hurt you from your heart, even the church people (fundis). Not easy, but with the help of God it is possible. Than you have to ask God with an humble heart, to reveal the truth to you. Do you want to teach the truth about hell, when you do not know, if there is one or not? Your statement, that there maybe one and a lake of fire for the wicked to be annihilated tells me that you do not know. What happens in the lake of fire is not important, what counts is not to be thrown into it. You say the lake of fire is a process for some for salvation and for cleansing. Where is this in the bible, you have any verse? That God can save a wicked person is out of question, but only in his life-time. After death it is over, final judgement is coming according to our deeds. Hell is real and not symbolic. Jesus taught it, and there are witnesses that hell is real. They witnessed for instance that a pastor was in hell, because he preached, that there is no hell. You are not a pastor, but I think this should be a warning for you. If hell and Satan are symbolic, how can they be thrown into a lake? that makes no sense to me. Atkutuq believes what is written in the bible. If you judge him, judgement can fall on you. How can you say he worships the beast, it comes out of a heart, that is hurt. You need prayer, I hope that Atkutuq will forgive you and pray that God opens your eyes. Be sure, God loves all of us and wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just ask Him, but they that are wise in their own eyes He will not answer. God bless you!
ZUR - no, I'm not speaking from a place of hurt. I'm speaking from a place of one who was hurt by the lies of the fundamentalists and who was delivered from their snare many years ago and was healed. And I speak so that those kept in bondage to fear because of them can hear the truth and find freedom.
Of course the devil being thrown into a lake of fire is symbolic of something spiritual. Or are you saying you can see and touch the devil with your literal hands? Clinging to childish interpretations of scripture causes a lot of craziness in the world. i'm sure you have read the passage about the w h o r e of Babylon being drunk on the wine of the wrath of her fornication. If you adore the image of a god who is furious and intends to literally torture souls for all eternity - that is worshiping a beast in my view. I make no apology for the way I see it. If Atkutuq is offended, that is not my problem. I can't and won't lie about my beliefs just so I do not offend those who love false doctrines.
Is Joseph of Arimathea in Hell? He was a rich man.
You see, what I, as unbelieving pondslime,see here is utter confusion about what's what. Reference to the Bible as the 'Only weapon' falls flat because everyone uses it as their weapon.
The only ones, like heartsong, here, who seem to be halfway to reasoning it out are rather using their own wisdom - human wisdom, which the Bible pees over with contempt, repeatedly.
'This cannot be right. This cannot be what a god of the kind I love and worship,would do.' Whatever we can read in the Bible, what makes sense, taking mercy and compassion (use the term 'love' if you like) as the 'greatest of all these' is what has to be true, not what is on the printed page, some of which already has to be taken as 'Metaphor' in any case.
When you do that, you are making a choice - fundamentalism or not. I'm not even saying that you have become an agnostic theist, but, once you realize that Bible-quoting works both ways, and Bible literalism leads to absurdity, Fundamentalist fanaticism, legalism and either harshness or hypocrisy, you realize that the Bible is NOT the answer, in itself, but what your 'heart' tells you.
I am sorry, as an unbeliever you cannot understand the bible, it is not possible, because their is another spirit in you that opposes God's word. The moment you receive Jesus Christ, you are transferred into the kingdom of light and you are able to understand if you ask and seek after truth. But God respects our free will, he will not force any one, we are free to believe what we want. Jesus was complaining over the little faith of the disciples.
First, eternal, unending torment is not what God is going to do, nor is it a biblical teaching. So where did it come from then? It came from Dante and Milton. So we have to decide...who are we going to believe, the Scriptures or man? Stop and think about what Christ said about man's teachings/commandments.
Now as to your quote. You see this is where incorrect teachings come from.
The Gr. word that's translated into English as 'torment' is "grief"[deep]....big difference there don't you think? All this nonsense comes about because ppl don't apply common sense to what is written.
Think about this for a moment. IF this man was in a fire that tormented him would he have only asked for a drop of water?
ZUR - no, I'm not speaking from a place of hurt. I'm speaking from a place of one who was hurt by the lies of the fundamentalists and who was delivered from their snare many years ago and was healed. And I speak so that those kept in bondage to fear because of them can hear the truth and find freedom.
Of course the devil being thrown into a lake of fire is symbolic of something spiritual. Or are you saying you can see and touch the devil with your literal hands? Clinging to childish interpretations of scripture causes a lot of craziness in the world. i'm sure you have read the passage about the w h o r e of Babylon being drunk on the wine of the wrath of her fornication. If you adore the image of a god who is furious and intends to literally torture souls for all eternity - that is worshiping a beast in my view. I make no apology for the way I see it. If Atkutuq is offended, that is not my problem. I can't and won't lie about my beliefs just so I do not offend those who love false doctrines.
I do not believe that you are healed. You are still spiritual sick. Otherwise you would not nail down the truth about hell, when you have not the truth about hell. There is surely Babylon in the church, but it is still the church of Jesus Christ and we are told not to judge, because there may be Babylon in us. God is spiritual and real as the Devil and hell is. There is no symbolic in it. Period. There is our world and there is another world which is spiritual, but as real as our world, the problem is the spiritual world is different and the natural mind does not understand the spiritual things. The Devil is mad with God that He made a hell for him and his fallen angels. Therefore he tries to take with him as many humans as possible. He is too clever, therefore people are deceived. Without Jesus Christ every one is his prey. Make sure you are in the book of life and not in the list of the Devil, if he has one. Do not play with eternity. Take it seriously, do you hear God's voice, than you are His sheep and you can ask and He will answer you. Just an advice that cost you nothing.
This was posted today on a friend's Facebook wall. Her husband is a church pastor.
I just don't get the whole wishy washy stuff over hell in the church camp. They own it for the altar calls and disown it for funerals. Some, wont name names, skirt it every chance they get. If you try to pin them down which Ive seen in interviews they fall back on 'God can sort all that out, we are just to love people'....but why not then question whether your God you are selling every Sunday truly is a monster or not? How is, "well he might or might not be a degenerate who wants to fry people forever, but hey, lets just cozy up and love one another and worship him anywho!!!" a good foundation? hmmmmm
I agree with her. That is why I will likely never attend another church. Too pretentious. I have another friend besides this one who also quit going to church because they were in a fundamentalist congregation and she saw Universalism in the bible and could no longer keep going to church - but her husband still goes without her for many years now.
You do not go to church out of fear of finding the truth. Some people simply do not want to know.
isaiah 53:5 but he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
acts 2:23 this man was handed over to you by god’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
matthew 20:17-19
"and jesus said : ...the son of man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. they will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. on the third day he will be raised to life!â€
You do not go to church out of fear of finding the truth. Some people simply do not want to know.
I spent plenty of years in church. That is where I got my understanding of what Babylon is where "everone's languages are confused" and chaos reigns. I was called out of "her" by God. The voice of the Spirit is drowned out in the churches by the loud noise of the voices (opinions) and teachings of men. Jesus and his message of grace has been put outside of there as well.
probably??? (YAWN).... IN over 30 years of reading Josephus I've never read or heard anything but that he was known for his love to tell the truth and he is historically accurate. Its not like you were actually there ya know!
I already told you, these writings were likely misattributed to him and I'm not about to go back over all the arguments eventhough it seems to be your favorite torture hell proof.. I never said all his writings are historically unreliable and if this was misattributed to him, it wouldn't be one of his writings anyways...though his description of supernatural events at the fall of Jerusalem do sound a bit far fetched (I think I remember many Christian apologists admitting this as well)...I do still think his writings are good proof for the historical Jesus. But anyways, I stand by my previous arguments and I'm not beating a dead horse when that horse wasn't even very good proof in the first place and it doesn't really address my posts anyways, but thats ok. I expected that.
i grew up in a household that went to a church that taught the hellfire and brimstone teachings, but when i became old enough to start thinking for myself, i started seeing things i thought were not right.
To shorten a long story i spent the most of my adult life hating the god i was taught throughout my upbringing. i have come to the conclusion that God will/has reconciled all His children through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus.
The idea that an all knowing, all powerful, all loving supreme being would, for all eternity, torture the vast majority of His creation, for NO other purpose but for Torture sake is sick.
i believe chastisement is for the purpose to learn righteousness.
In issaiha we are told that when Gods' judgments are in the earth the WORLD will learn.
The scriptures say He is a God of mercy and the mercy endures forever but His messengers say it comes to an end...................i'll go with the scriptures
blessings ya'll
Me too. Thoughtful post. My grandmother's church taught that women would go t hell for wearing make-up and pants. They also forbid people from going to ballgames, movies, and had all manner of rules of things they said were offensive to God. There are still churches like that. Many in the protestant camp condemn all Catholics and people of other faiths to eternal torment. It's quite astonishing if you actually think about how the gospel of peace has been perverted into a gospel of "God hates you". Many churches think "we're not like West Boro Baptists" but in reality they are just "Westboro Baptist lite".
By the way, the 2nd lady I spoke about in my original post had 3 sons and the youngest of the three was a total religious fanatic who was completely bound by bible literalism. Sadly, he was also very depressed and committed suicide at age 18 by lying down on the railroad tracks in their little town and waiting for a train to run over him. I can only imagine the heart-ache that poor family has been through since then - it has probably been about 7 or 8 years ago now that this happened. I certainly can't blame her for quitting church. Her husband has not been shown the Universalism that runs throughout the scriptures, so that is probably why he still goes to church. I'm amazed their marriage survived this.
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