Nailing Down The Truth About Hell (Gospel, women, churches, funerals)
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Good quote, Heartsong. It's nice to see that some people are logical enough to admit they don't know or understand God's judgment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
There is no end to their suffering it is eternal (not a long period of time). But without time.
...I'm going to assume for the sake of this post that you're one of those eternal torture chamber hell believers and I might exaggerate my comments a bit for the sake of effect and because I'm a bit tired right now but still wanted post something...For now, I'm not even going to bother showing you how the Universal Reconciliationists or Annihilationists or even Eternal Separationists respond to these verses and how they do not mean what you think they mean...if you've been at this forum for any decent amount of time, you should know. Now allow me to present my seemingly time tested logic/morality argument using a lot of parentheses to save space:
The fact is, your god (or how you view God) is a SADIST of inconceivable proportions. There is simply no getting around it. God is said to have designed the universe and if he did so, he decided all moral law including the one where supposedly a single sin = eternal torture possibly for Adam and certainly eternal torture for all his offspring (Doctrine of Original Sin) if they (humans who cannot mentally comprehend eternity) happen to not be lucky enough to find Jesus (about 90 to 99.9% of everyone who has ever lived) in their short 13 to 120 year lifespan regardless of where or what culture they are born. This is simply a disgusting way of viewing God and existence in general and is actually a great way to justify sitting back and watching the world fall apart around us and not doing anything to help it because "its all apart of the plan" and its all going to burn anyways...I suppose that's generalizing a bit, but it is a common symptom of such a belief so it should be mentioned
If this is your belief, this is god of yours is Hitler, Ivan IV, Joseph Stalin, and Vlad the Impaler times infinity and no excuse, justification, or "Eternality of God" argument I've heard from any Eternal Torture believing fundamentalist have ever made even comes close to morally and/or logically proving otherwise. Any response I've ever heard to this have been nothing more than vague, soulless fundamentalist talking points that don't come close to addressing everything wrong with this eternal sadist hell model.. God gave us brains and a conscience. Don't let bad or questionable bible translation/understanding and nutty archaic traditions destroy yours...
..hopefully I'm not too far off base from your beliefs, but if you believe anything like I use to, I'm close enough and you haven't enough begun to realize scope of logical and moral insanity that exists in these ideas. Most of this post is simply taking the basics of modern Christian theology to their logical conclusion...was my post dramatic enough?
Last edited by Jrhockney; 03-05-2014 at 12:52 AM..
Good quote, Heartsong. It's nice to see that some people are logical enough to admit they don't know or understand God's judgment.
...I'm going to assume for the sake of this post that you're one of those eternal torture chamber hell believers and I might exaggerate my comments a bit for the sake of effect and because I'm a bit tired right now but still wanted post something...For now, I'm not even going to bother showing you how the Universal Reconciliationists or Annihilationists or even Eternal Separationists respond to these verses and how they do not mean what you think they mean...if you've been at this forum for any decent amount of time, you should know. Now allow me to present my seemingly time tested logic/morality argument using a lot of parentheses to save space:
The fact is, your god (or how you view God) is a SADIST of inconceivable proportions. There is simply no getting around it. God is said to have designed the universe and if he did so, he decided all moral law including the one where supposedly a single sin = eternal torture possibly for Adam and certainly eternal torture for all his offspring (Doctrine of Original Sin) if they (humans who cannot mentally comprehend eternity) happen to not be lucky enough to find Jesus (about 90 to 99.9% of everyone who has ever lived) in their short 13 to 120 year lifespan regardless of where or what culture they are born. This is simply a disgusting way of viewing God and existence in general and is actually a great way to justify sitting back and watching the world fall apart around us and not doing anything to help it because "its all apart of the plan" and its all going to burn anyways...I suppose that's generalizing a bit, but it is a common symptom of such a belief so it should be mentioned
If this is your belief, this is god of yours is Hitler, Ivan IV, Joseph Stalin, and Vlad the Impaler times infinity and no excuse, justification, or "Eternality of God" argument I've heard from any Eternal Torture believing fundamentalist have ever made even comes close to morally and/or logically proving otherwise. Any response I've ever heard to this have been nothing more than vague, soulless fundamentalist talking points that don't come close to addressing everything wrong with this eternal sadist hell model.. God gave us brains and a conscience. Don't let bad or questionable bible translation/understanding and nutty archaic traditions destroy yours...
..hopefully I'm not too far off base from your beliefs, but if you believe anything like I use to, I'm close enough and you haven't enough begun to realize scope of logical and moral insanity that exists in these ideas. ..was my post dramatic enough?
The first thing I noticed apart from your "human reasoning" is that you didn't quote one verse of scripture.
The first thing I noticed apart from your "human reasoning" is that you didn't quote one verse of scripture.
That's not the point...Like I said, I'm showing you the logical insanity of this from the human reasoning side. Of course as a fundamentalist, you'll just shout "AALL IIII NEEDDD ISSS SCRIPTUREE!!!" and "GOD'S MORALITY IS NOT HUMAN MORALITY!!!" while your buried half brainwashed conscience can't help but think there might be something wrong with this (unless of course its completely brainwashed but I have some hope ). I'm sure you'll accuse me of being brainwashed myself, but if that's true, its only because of the total lack of any decent response to these arguments after all the times I've posted it. Like I said, If you want scriptural arguments against your understanding of these verses, look up any of the gazillion hell debates on this forum. Its quite late where I'm at and I'm not in the mood to re-post 1000 verses or Greek/Hebrew word arguments. I'm just here to plant the logic seed and that's what I seem to best at here anyways
I'm well aware of the greek - Well aware of the common knowledge that was present 2000 years ago when Josephus wrote to the greeks concerning hades.
I was born @ night; But it wasn't last night!
Wait a minute...didn't I already respond to your Josephus nonsense on another thread?!..I told you he probably didn't write that and it was probably written by Hippolytus as many if not most believe, not that it even matters because neither of them are authors of the bible and certainly not enough to base a morally and logically insane (by any known human standard of justice) idea upon..Looks like I've underestimated the hold that talking points have over the fundamentalist.
...well I'm probably done for the night, but do me a favor if you would...read my post "logic" post again very carefully and tell me how I'm wrong scripturally, morally, and logically. If you can't, that should tell you something... Bring it to your pastor if you have to see if he can come up with something that not a "God works in mysterious ways" argument...and I was born at night too if I remember correctly and I've spend more nights that I can think of trying to get around these arguments to no avail..
..Lastly, here I'm mainly arguing against the logical insanity of an eternal torture chamber theology, and I'm not addressing Eternal Separationist (a position held by many if not most Mainstream conservative Christian apologists including William Lane Craig[who is arguably the best there is]) or annihilationist ideas for the moment. Just keep an open mind. God may judge that as well.
wait a minute...didn't i already respond to your josephus nonsense on another thread?!..i told you he probably didn't write that and it was probably written by hippolytus as many if not most believe, not that it even matters because neither of them are authors of the bible and certainly not enough to base a morally and logically insane (by any known human standard of justice) idea upon..looks like i've underestimated the hold that talking points have over the fundamentalist.
...well i'm probably done for the night, but do me a favor if you would...read my post "logic" post again very carefully and tell me how i'm wrong scripturally, morally, and logically. If you can't, that should tell you something... Bring it to your pastor if you have to see if he can come up with something that not a "god works in mysterious ways" argument...and i was born at night too if i remember correctly and i've spend more nights that i can think of trying to get around these arguments to no avail..
..lastly, here i'm mainly arguing against the logical insanity of an eternal torture chamber theology, and i'm not addressing eternal separationist (a position held by many if not most mainstream conservative christian apologists including william lane craig[who is arguably the best there is]) or annihilationist ideas for the moment. Just keep an open mind. God may judge that as well.
probably??? (YAWN).... IN over 30 years of reading Josephus I've never read or heard anything but that he was known for his love to tell the truth and he is historically accurate. Its not like you were actually there ya know!
Hello Heartsong, what I sense is first you have to forgive every one that hurt you from your heart, even the church people (fundis). Not easy, but with the help of God it is possible. Than you have to ask God with an humble heart, to reveal the truth to you. Do you want to teach the truth about hell, when you do not know, if there is one or not? Your statement, that there maybe one and a lake of fire for the wicked to be annihilated tells me that you do not know. What happens in the lake of fire is not important, what counts is not to be thrown into it. You say the lake of fire is a process for some for salvation and for cleansing. Where is this in the bible, you have any verse? That God can save a wicked person is out of question, but only in his life-time. After death it is over, final judgement is coming according to our deeds. Hell is real and not symbolic. Jesus taught it, and there are witnesses that hell is real. They witnessed for instance that a pastor was in hell, because he preached, that there is no hell. You are not a pastor, but I think this should be a warning for you. If hell and Satan are symbolic, how can they be thrown into a lake? that makes no sense to me. Atkutuq believes what is written in the bible. If you judge him, judgement can fall on you. How can you say he worships the beast, it comes out of a heart, that is hurt. You need prayer, I hope that Atkutuq will forgive you and pray that God opens your eyes. Be sure, God loves all of us and wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just ask Him, but they that are wise in their own eyes He will not answer. God bless you!
Is Joseph of Arimathea in Hell? He was a rich man.
You see, what I, as unbelieving pondslime,see here is utter confusion about what's what. Reference to the Bible as the 'Only weapon' falls flat because everyone uses it as their weapon.
The only ones, like heartsong, here, who seem to be halfway to reasoning it out are rather using their own wisdom - human wisdom, which the Bible pees over with contempt, repeatedly.
'This cannot be right. This cannot be what a god of the kind I love and worship,would do.' Whatever we can read in the Bible, what makes sense, taking mercy and compassion (use the term 'love' if you like) as the 'greatest of all these' is what has to be true, not what is on the printed page, some of which already has to be taken as 'Metaphor' in any case.
When you do that, you are making a choice - fundamentalism or not. I'm not even saying that you have become an agnostic theist, but, once you realize that Bible-quoting works both ways, and Bible literalism leads to absurdity, Fundamentalist fanaticism, legalism and either harshness or hypocrisy, you realize that the Bible is NOT the answer, in itself, but what your 'heart' tells you.
i grew up in a household that went to a church that taught the hellfire and brimstone teachings, but when i became old enough to start thinking for myself, i started seeing things i thought were not right.
To shorten a long story i spent the most of my adult life hating the god i was taught throughout my upbringing. i have come to the conclusion that God will/has reconciled all His children through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus.
The idea that an all knowing, all powerful, all loving supreme being would, for all eternity, torture the vast majority of His creation, for NO other purpose but for Torture sake is sick.
i believe chastisement is for the purpose to learn righteousness.
In issaiha we are told that when Gods' judgments are in the earth the WORLD will learn.
The scriptures say He is a God of mercy and the mercy endures forever but His messengers say it comes to an end...................i'll go with the scriptures
blessings ya'll
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