Praying to Mary and Saints................ (doctrine, belief, sinners, Holy Spirit)
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I would suspect that the "saints" ignore anyone who prays to them, knowing it is wrong and assumes God needs intercession beyond what he has provided. Kinda saying God didn't get it right the first time and Jesus isn't enough for us.
I know God hears my prayers and need no intercession beyond Jesus.
In fact there is a case when a woman in a crowd tried to:
Luke 11:27
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out,
“Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
and Jesus had nothing to do with that
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Then there was the time concerning the Apostle John, where he was told not to:
Revelation 22:8-9 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
I will make an attempt to clear this up for my protestant brothers and sisters.
Why do you see it as such a problem that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints? Have you ever had a close relative pass away? After his/her death, do you ever find yourself talking to them? Asking them for guidance? Wishing they were with you? Telling them you miss them? YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING.
No actually it's not the same thing at all. If I speak silently or vocally to a dead relative or friend, I am not asking them to put in a good word with God for me.
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We aren't praying to Mary and the saints as if they were deities. We are simply asking them to intercede on our behalf. Yes, we know we can pray directly to God (and we do.) But consider this example. Let's say you are interviewing for a job. And you know the bosses secretary very closely. Wouldn't you ask her to put in a good word for you? You still have to go directly to the boss and impress him. But wouldn't it help to have a little inside assistance? Mary is closer to God than anybody else we know. And we feel very close to Mary. So we ask her to pray for us.
The difference is that you are creating inequality where there is none.
We are told in Revelations 22:8-9 "I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”
Our relationship with prophets and apostles and Mary and any other believer in God is pretty clear: They are fellow servants. It is not appropriate for us to pray to them. All humankind is equal in the eyes of God. Somebody had to be the mother of Christ. Somebody had to be one to bring the message of truth at any given point in history. Somebody has to lead the people of God in any given age so that the people are not in disorganized chaos. That does not make them any of them better in the eyes of God, for we are all sinners who fall short of the glory of God. Moses, Abraham, Peter, James, John, Mary, John the Baptist -- all of them are just as dependent upon the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as I am. Praying to any of them is just as nonsensical as praying to my younger brother.
In all the thousands of years that the Biblical record spans, never once did a righteous believer pray to a dead prophet or apostle. Why would that have changed?
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Have you ever had a member of your church community sick? Did the pastor get up and ask you all to pray for him/her?
Never seen it happen that way. We are encouraged to pray for that fellow believer that is sick, but we do not rely on the head of the congregation to actually do the praying for us. In our meetings, we try to involve everyone, so it could be anyone on any given week.
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You are asking for others to intercede on behalf of another person. That's all we are doing when we pray to Mary or the saints. We are asking for their help and prayers. We still have to pray to God. Praying only to Mary will not get us what we need.
Questions?
I respect your right to believe and practice as you see fit. But please understand: If you want me or any other non-Catholic to agree that praying to Mary is no big deal, you're not going to get anywhere. If Protestantism wasn't so vocal about denouncing Mariology, I honestly believe that Mary would have been formally deified long ago. Mary worship (as we non-Catholics see it) is just way too popular among Catholics for it to have gone any other way.
We all have our flaws and imperfections. I won't claim to be better or smarter than you. I just fail to see any reasonable basis for praying to anyone but God himself. I don't think you're likely to talk me out of that point of view.
I respect your right to believe and practice as you see fit. But please understand: If you want me or any other non-Catholic to agree that praying to Mary is no big deal, you're not going to get anywhere. If Protestantism wasn't so vocal about denouncing Mariology, I honestly believe that Mary would have been formally deified long ago. Mary worship (as we non-Catholics see it) is just way too popular among Catholics for it to have gone any other way.
We all have our flaws and imperfections. I won't claim to be better or smarter than you. I just fail to see any reasonable basis for praying to anyone but God himself. I don't think you're likely to talk me out of that point of view.
God Bless,
GOT
Actually, you are quite wrong!
I am a Catholic and I never pray to Mary and the Saints. In fact, as a Catholic i am not required to pray to Mary or the Saints. I go to mass every Sunday and we never pray to Mary during mass.
However, I admire those that have devotion for the Virgin sucn as Mexicans and Polish people.
You fail to understand that Catholicism is rooted in ancient traditions and for some it is traditional to be devoted to the Virgin even if the Virgin is not a deity. It is a cultural phenomenon that you will never understand because you belong to a religious movement that has few traditions.
Lastly, I would not expect you to understand or accept a different manner to worship the Lord. Some folks can only see things from their perspective and I have no issues with that. As a Catholic that never prays to Mary I see your viewpoint quite clearly. Perhaps the only difference is that I see God at a much higher level than you do. I don't think God is jealous when people pray to Mary.
However, I admire those that have devotion for the Virgin sucn as Mexicans and Polish people.
You fail to understand that Catholicism is rooted in ancient traditions and for some it is traditional to be devoted to the Virgin even if the Virgin is not a deity. It is a cultural phenomenon that you will never understand because you belong to a religious movement that has few traditions.
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Very true. I'd guess that the more vehement anti-Catholics have never even been in a Catholic church on a Mexican or Polish holiday to witness what they are so vehemently against. A Mexican woman, full of faith, draped in a mantilla, bringing flowers from her garden to the Virgin of Guadalupe is a heartwarming almost poetic sight.
However, I admire those that have devotion for the Virgin sucn as Mexicans and Polish people.
You fail to understand that Catholicism is rooted in ancient traditions and for some it is traditional to be devoted to the Virgin even if the Virgin is not a deity. It is a cultural phenomenon that you will never understand because you belong to a religious movement that has few traditions.
Very true. I'd guess those who are the most ardent in their anti-Mary sentiments have never even been in a Catholic church with a Mexican or a Pole to witness what they are so vehemently against. A Mexican woman, full of faith, draped in a mantilla, bringing flowers from her garden to the Virgin of Guadalupe is a heartwarming, almost poetic sight. The Virgin is someone they've known all their lives. She is a very real presence in their lives and in their homes.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 02-19-2014 at 07:16 PM..
This is misunderstood as "praying to" . . . when it is actually asking for "prayers from." Everyone who has ever asked others to pray for them or a loved one or whatever . . . has done the exact same thing!
Speaking to dead people is forbidden in the Bible.
This is a fact! But so many don't care what God has to say. They will do things their way no matter what God has to say about it. Some follow men rather than God and claim it is of their god. So sad. But God is not mocked. All we can do as Christians is share the truth of God and allow the Holy Spirit to draw those who will hear away from pagan and demonic influences and into the light of God. We war not against flesh and blood you know. Until they know salvation through Jesus Christ there is no need to try and change them. Sin is sin and that's what sinners do. They sin. I know a little about the bondage some are in being under such a repressive man made religion that contradicts God at every turn and demands loyalty to a man or men in place of God. The saints (living Christians) must continue to pray for and share the truth with the lost no matter what alternative religion they may be ensnared in.
This is a fact! But so many don't care what God has to say. They will do things their way no matter what God has to say about it. Some follow men rather than God and claim it is of their god. So sad. But God is not mocked. All we can do as Christians is share the truth of God and allow the Holy Spirit to draw those who will hear away from pagan and demonic influences and into the light of God. We war not against flesh and blood you know. Until they know salvation through Jesus Christ there is no need to try and change them. Sin is sin and that's what sinners do. They sin. I know a little about the bondage some are in being under such a repressive man made religion that contradicts God at every turn and demands loyalty to a man or men in place of God. The saints (living Christians) must continue to pray for and share the truth with the lost no matter what alternative religion they may be ensnared in.
I am a Catholic and you are incorrect.
Your assertion that your religion or belief system is better is rooted in ignorance.
No religion is better than others. I admire Mormons and Jews even if their religion is different. I also have great admiration for Protestants.
You sound just like the people Jesus mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount,
Quote:
Matthew 7:1-5
Judging Others
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
In the following video Father Jeff Bayhi emphasizes several times that Catholics are not praying to Mary, etc., but praying through Mary, etc.. While I personally don't see the need for it, I can wrap my head around Mary being prayed through, better than I can her being prayed to.
A Christian is in Christ not in Mary. We are to pray through/by the Holy Spirit because Jesus gave Him to us as the only medium of communication to God. Therefor He who blasphemes the Holy Spirit has nullified [not saying anyone here has but simply explaining] the only means of direct communication with God. Every other way is bizarre because it is seeking a medium other than Christ. It is written that we are not to seek mediums because Christ is the only one.
Praying to Mary or others may not be blasphemy for some because they do it in ignorance but it is a mistake and useless except that one might find human comfort in it but it will not answer prayer. True prayer is of the Spirit and answered by the Spirit. He shows the things of God to us.
I reminisce about my mother and have good thoughts of Mary being an example of motherhood and blessed because of her faith but that is all. No one but God answers prayers and only because of what Jesus did for us. He provided Atonement so that we can access God directly in the good times and in our bad times.
He answers us by the Comforter who is also called the Spirit of Supplication and Spirit of Truth. No one on the earth or in Heaven holds these titles as the intercessor and to answer prayer because the Spirit is Christ in His Glorified state of being.
Last edited by garya123; 02-20-2014 at 03:21 PM..
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Praying to Mary and Saints................
