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I never claimed to understand the military psyche and no I never served in the military these things have nothing to do with my objection which is priests serving in the military plain and simple
"military loyalty"
A priest loyalty should be to God, can't serve two masters.
"Walk a fine line between personal beliefs..."
We are called to live our faith/beliefs not to hide them.
"not undermining the military mission"
Not if that mission is immoral and or unjust. but not to worry most of the bishops and many of the priests are warmongers, most of the modern day popes including the new pope have spoken out against war although they really did not press the issue, I'm waiting on Frances to push the issue.
You have missed the big message of Christ regarding how to serve God. You are not going to stop war no matter how passionate or how great your resolve. A priest or pastor or chaplain's loyalty should be toward the individual he or she is helping right now----the one in front of them.
The world has never been changed for the better by eliminating poverty, by stopping war, or any other "major" calamity or injustice. It has always been one person at a time, which is the very thing those chaplains do--help the one person in front of them.
You are also faced with the moral dilemma of either accepting "war" as a less acceptable way of ending slavery--or a holocaust, and instead simply "praying" for those suffering from such injustice but not doing anything to halt it. Sometimes the "evil" of war sets the stage for Christians to continue winning the world one person at a time. The change in people's hearts came only AFTER those evil wars.
One of my favorite stories is of a man walking a beach after a storm and seeing a young boy picking up one of thousands of starfish which had washed up on shore and tossing it back into the ocean.
"Do you really think that's going to make any difference with all these starfish on the beach," he called to the boy. The boy bent over, picked up another starfish and tossed it back into the ocean. Then turning to the man he shouted back, "It made a difference for that one."
Try helping people one at a time---and refrain from preventing men and women of God who choose to serve as chaplains in the service from doing the same in their own way.
It's far easier to moralize against war than it is to help a single individual---particularly one wounded and perhaps dying, and while you both are under fire from unseen assailants. Do that for awhile and then come back to tell us your feelings then. You may still hate war, but you'll have new appreciation for chaplains who serve unarmed in war zones.
And then it WILL mean something to you, and what you might have to say might have more credibility here and elsewhere.
Priests in the service do not serve two masters, they serve one person in need at one particular moment and thereby honor the name of Jesus. Jesus didn't heal or help people in bunches. He didn't end war. He condemned no one or no practice from the Cross. Instead, His example was to reach out to people one at a time.
You have missed the big message of Christ regarding how to serve God. You are not going to stop war no matter how passionate or how great your resolve. A priest or pastor or chaplain's loyalty should be toward the individual he or she is helping right now----the one in front of them.
Intriguing discussion on Christ, military, war and the chaplains. Christ was a holy man and also an intelligent man who knows our world and the behaviors inherent in it. Personally, I do not see him chastising those who fight in wars against those who through their actions, try to forward a world based on vicious hate and killing. To then 'turn the other cheek' is extremely ridiculous and foolhardy to be ensnared in the thought yes it is war therfore men should not partake to defend themslves or their way of life. I think military chaplains on the battlefield and unarmed as noted, represent all that good that is in men who through their courage and bravery offer their lives like Christ to something beyond themselves for the greater good.
Matthew 8:5-13: "Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour."
***
Was the Roman Centurian rebuked for being a high ranking military officer?
"The world has never been changed for the better by eliminating poverty, by stopping war, or any other "major" calamity or injustice. It has always been one person at a time, which is the very thing those chaplains do--help the one person in front of them."
When have we ever eliminated poverty by not stopping war???
War increases poverty, it destroys cities and villages displaces people who are forced to live under terrible conditions where many die of disease and hunger in refugee camps.
Not to mention the cost of wars and of maintaining large armies, having 1000 bases all over the globe takes money away from programs to help end poverty and hunger.
As MLK said “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
You are also faced with the moral dilemma of either accepting "war" as a less acceptable way of ending slavery--or a holocaust, and instead simply "praying" for those suffering from such injustice but not doing anything to halt it. Sometimes the "evil" of war sets the stage for Christians to continue winning the world one person at a time. The change in people's hearts came only AFTER those evil wars.
Most people around the world have won their freedom without war, with the death of Nelson Mandela this week how can you forget.
And we didn't enter WWII because of the holocaust.
Evil begets evil as MLK said “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
Bombing for peace is like having sex for virginity.
Jesus said "love your enemy"; if you love your enemy he will not be your enemy.
What brought Hitler and the Nazis into power was the treatment of Germany after WWI.
I never said ""praying" for those suffering from such injustice but not doing anything to halt it"
As Fr.Daniel Berrigan,SJ said "Prayer and hope are good things, but you have to do hopeful things, just as Jesus said about wishing someone well without helping them is wrong.
Matthew 8:5-13: "Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour."
***
Was the Roman Centurian rebuked for being a high ranking military officer?
You are really reaching with that one, the story was not about giving his support for that man being in the army, it was about his faith/belief in Jesus to perform wonders because he recognize that Jesus was no mere man.
"The world has never been changed for the better by eliminating poverty, by stopping war, or any other "major" calamity or injustice. It has always been one person at a time, which is the very thing those chaplains do--help the one person in front of them."
When have we ever eliminated poverty by not stopping war???
War increases poverty, it destroys cities and villages displaces people who are forced to live under terrible conditions where many die of disease and hunger in refugee camps.
Not to mention the cost of wars and of maintaining large armies, having 1000 bases all over the globe takes money away from programs to help end poverty and hunger.
As MLK said “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
You are also faced with the moral dilemma of either accepting "war" as a less acceptable way of ending slavery--or a holocaust, and instead simply "praying" for those suffering from such injustice but not doing anything to halt it. Sometimes the "evil" of war sets the stage for Christians to continue winning the world one person at a time. The change in people's hearts came only AFTER those evil wars.
Most people around the world have won their freedom without war, with the death of Nelson Mandela this week how can you forget.
And we didn't enter WWII because of the holocaust.
Evil begets evil as MLK said “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
Bombing for peace is like having sex for virginity.
Jesus said "love your enemy"; if you love your enemy he will not be your enemy.
What brought Hitler and the Nazis into power was the treatment of Germany after WWI.
I never said ""praying" for those suffering from such injustice but not doing anything to halt it"
As Fr.Daniel Berrigan,SJ said "Prayer and hope are good things, but you have to do hopeful things, just as Jesus said about wishing someone well without helping them is wrong.
Young man you appear to see everything in black or white. While I generally agree and understand your anti-war sentiment (for perhaps different reasons), I don't think tunnel vision does you any favor nor honors God in the way you think.
No war is entirely justified, and I'm no flag waver, but sometimes the final results lead to something other than richer corporations---just not in the last decade or so. There are other wars waiting in the wings. Will you find a way to turn the evil to good or just rail against the injustice?
Read something about Mandela or Gandhi or MLK, Jr, there may not have been "war" but there was certainly great civil disobedience and far more loss of life than many are aware of. Both Gandhi and MLK were assassinated --- evil events, from which great change and good emerged--just as in the case of some wars.
You are really reaching with that one, the story was not about giving his support for that man being in the army, it was about his faith/belief in Jesus to perform wonders because he recognize that Jesus was no mere man.
I don't believe so.
The point was simply that if war was wrong in and of itself, Jesus would've rebuked the man.
Exodus 15:3 decrees: "The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is His name."
I am *by no means* a war monger; I simply believe that everything has it's time and place.
Young man you appear to see everything in black or white. While I generally agree and understand your anti-war sentiment (for perhaps different reasons), I don't think tunnel vision does you any favor nor honors God in the way you think.
No war is entirely justified, and I'm no flag waver, but sometimes the final results lead to something other than richer corporations---just not in the last decade or so. There are other wars waiting in the wings. Will you find a way to turn the evil to good or just rail against the injustice?
Read something about Mandela or Gandhi or MLK, Jr, there may not have been "war" but there was certainly great civil disobedience and far more loss of life than many are aware of. Both Gandhi and MLK were assassinated --- evil events, from which great change and good emerged--just as in the case of some wars.
Well at the age of 60 I would hardly call myself a young man or say I look at everything in black and white, older I get I tend to see more in shades of gray.
Seeing in shades of grey allow you to see things differently, it allows you to put yourself in the shoes of others even your enemy or should I say those you thought were your enemy; when you look at everything in black and white there is a tendency to be more judgmental about others that are different than yourself be it the color of their skin, their religion, makes it awful easy to demonize the poor and blame them for their condition.
" but sometimes the final results lead to something other than richer corporations---just not in the last decade or so"
And which war would that be that wasn't fought for corporate interests, if someone could not make a profit off a war it would not be fought.
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier
"
Read something about Mandela or Gandhi or MLK, Jr, there may not have been "war" but there was certainly great civil disobedience and far more loss of life"
Killing is done by those that wield power not the oppress. anyway it pales in comparison to wars like WWII which claimed the lives of over 60 million people.
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