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Paul says nothing about it being pre tribulation nor of any visible evidence like clothes left behind :^)
Yes he does. But you need to understand a few things. The church needs to be removed from the earth (the rapture) before the day of the Lord can begin. The day of the Lord includes the Tribulation. And the Tribulation which is Daniel's 70th week will begin when the prince who is to come (the man of lawlessness mentioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2) signs a peace treaty with Israel - the covenant with the many which is mentioned in Daniel 9:27. And the man of lawlessness cannot come on the scene until the church is gone. Once the church has been raptured the restraining influence of God the Holy Spirit will be lifted. It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the church age believer which restrains the appearance of the man of lawlessness. Though the Holy Spirit who is omnipresent will still be here, His restraining influence will be removed.
After Paul had written about the rapture and the day of the Lord in his first epistle to the Thessalonians, they began to receive messages from false teachers that the day of the Lord had come (2 Thess. 2:2). And so in his second epistle Paul assured them that the day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. And in his first epistle Paul had already told them that God has not destined the church for wrath, but for obtaining salvation in the sense of deliverance from the day of the Lord which is the context in which he speaks of that deliverance (1 Thess. 5:9).
Kinda' had a hunch the thread might head in this direction.
Regardless of whether or not you believe the Bible, do you understand from what I said in post #8 that the popular view of Armageddon is not at all what the Bible says about it?
Regardless of whether or not you believe the Bible, do you understand from what I said in post #8 that the popular view of Armageddon is not at all what the Bible says about it?
What I understand is, you folks can't agree on much and spend most of your time arguing biblical minutiae.
What I understand is, you folks can't agree on much and spend most of your time arguing biblical minutiae.
I asked you a simple question. Do you understand from what the Bible says concerning Armageddon, and which I pointed out in post #8, that it has nothing to do with the end of the world? Does that not deserve the courtesy of an honest answer?
I asked you a simple question. Do you understand from what the Bible says concerning Armageddon, and which I pointed out in post #8, that it has nothing to do with the end of the world? Does that not deserve the courtesy of an honest answer?
Do YOU understand that I don't give a flying fig what the bible says? Or your particular interpretation of same?
My interest is in why certain Christians seem to delight at the prospect of Armageddon and that's what the thread is (supposed to be) about.
I like what Corrie ten Boom said about the rapture, who had to endure being imprisoned by the Nazis. In essence, she was saying that thousands upon thousands of Christians are tortured and killed every year around the world (which is really the same thing as NOT escaping the tribulation), and yet many Christians believe that the Western Church is somehow special enough to escape persecution?
How arrogant does one have to be to believe this? To quote David Allan Coe, "There's no justice for the righteous or the wicked either one," or as Jesus would say, "He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt 5:45) Or Peter, "I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism." (Acts 10:32)
Do YOU understand that I don't give a flying fig what the bible says? Or your particular interpretation of same?
My interest is in why certain Christians seem to delight at the prospect of Armageddon and that's what the thread is (supposed to be) about.
As I stated at the beginning of post #8, if you are going to talk about Armageddon than you must first know what the Bible actually says about it. And I gave the true Biblical perspective of Armageddon.
I am well aware that you ''don't give a flying fig what the Bible says.'' That is why when I asked you if you understood the difference between the Biblical teaching of Armageddon and the popular but false view, that it was regardless of whether or not you believe the Bible.
As do many who come on this forum, you come with a hostile attitude. Since you are unwilling to provide an answer to my question, I will leave you to your attitude.
Can anyone explain why so many Christian fundamentalists seem to positively delight in armageddon scenarios?
I get that some have deemed it necessary to warn all of the always-arriving apocalypse and give them a chance to repent etc.
What I don't get is the anticipation and absolute glee with which some folks talk/write about it.
It seems to me like gloating, like they're enjoying the fact that they will be saved and billions will burn. Frankly, it creeps me out.
Perhaps some here can point out an alternative explanation.
In simplest terms:
1) Prideful superiority as in (and you can sing along to that old Ken L Ration dog food commercial): "My God's better than your god, My God's better than yours - my Gods better cause it makes me feel better that My God's better than yours"
2) Conversion by 'FEAR' much like an insurance salesman
3) Selective interpretation to fit an accepted dogmatic belief construct
It would serve you well to become acquainted with the following concepts:
Audience Relevance: to Whom was something said and When was it said Cultural Relevance: What did it mean to the original audience in context of the times it was written Historian Fallacy: expecting those of 2000 years ago to view the events through a 21st century prism
Translation fallacy: interpreting terms from 2000 years ago as if they mean the same in the contemporary language. Did they even have terms to mean the same thing? What about the different types of literary usage: Allegory, Epochyphal, Metaphor, Parable, Poetry, etc.... Linguistic Frames of reference: Intrinsic, Absolute, Relative
Again, in simplest terms it is more correctly interpreted as 'The End of the Age" i.e. their 1st century Jewish Temple worship archetype. Has nothing to do with "terra firma". See above with selective interpretation. The Temple represented symbolically the Earth, Sea, and Sky and had specific meaning to THEM (1st Century Jews). Their 'World/Age" ended in 70 AD.
'The Revelation' is in simplest terms God's divorce decree (in their language) from them (1st Century Jewish culture for constantly refusing to abide by the commands on how to live their lives) in the same linguistic terms as used throughout the text. It has nothing to do with 21st century other than serves as a great manipulative tool to whip up certain political blocs to support foreign policy positions.
This has been a public service announcement - now back to regular bickering.....
I like what Corrie ten Boom said about the rapture, who had to endure being imprisoned by the Nazis. In essence, she was saying that thousands upon thousands of Christians are tortured and killed every year around the world (which is really the same thing as NOT escaping the tribulation), and yet many Christians believe that the Western Church is somehow special enough to escape persecution?
How arrogant does one have to be to believe this? To quote David Allan Coe, "There's no justice for the righteous or the wicked either one," or as Jesus would say, "He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt 5:45) Or Peter, "I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism." (Acts 10:32)
Glacierx, you have made the best darn post on this thread. I have absolutely no interest in whether or not any of this malarky will take place. My instructions from God are to live in the here and now---and to be concerned about the situations such as Corrie ten Boom related.
In other words, don't waste time waving your biblical education around when you can be doing something about people who are suffering here and now.
If I can help ONE PERSON with money or food or love or all three--then that will be the rapture for them.
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Best post on this thread
