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It's something that's bothering me. It's been years since I've had that conviction that God - specifically the Biblical God - is actually real...like i believe, but I feel it's more like a hoping...when I pray, half of me believes it won't do anything. Is that what you call agnosticism? I mean I do believe/think there is a God, that the Bible broadly refers to the true God, but there are just so many things about the BIBLICAL God that prevent me from fully believing. I've prayed, try reading the Bible (but the problem is sometimes reading it makes it WORSE). What else can I do? I just crave peace of mind, but with my anxiety that's hard.
I think one problem is I've tried to FORCE myself to believe in the past. I naturally found stuff like Noah's Ark hard to take literally but I forced myself to believe it when I was 12 or so before I went through an agnostic stage, and now I can't seem to just believe naturally without those counterracting feelings. It's like the more i try the worse i make it. I think I believe am 'saved' but don't know for sure.
What else can I do? Should I explore other belief systems.etc, read more Christian books.etc? I think reading a lot of one POV may convince you, but like anything, after that fades you're left with your natural skepticism. My faith is buoyed every time i read a book like that but only briefly, and seemingly, less strongly than before.
I've haven't had the feeling of assurance that I'll go to Heaven or that I'm a child of God for years...I thought i was going to die, and I didn't of the joy of being with God and other believers but of eternal nothingness...what faith I have isn't enough to make me faithfully follow the Lord's command. I guess if I do lose my faith and be damned than life was just a cruel joke . Well that's on the chance there even is damnation...I find the alternative of just ceasing to exist plain depressing, and renders life meaningless.
I might have a slightly different view of this whole question of whether God is benevolent or just wrathful...and whether our faith in Him is justified...
ALL religion aside, let us consider the love of a parent for their child... From the parent's point of view, they are in an authoritative position, trying to teach their children how to determine right from wrong. They are trying to give to their children mental "tools" they can use all their lives to help them when making tough decisions or life choices. They do this because of the love they have for them, and as they blossom and grow, so does the love bond between them.
This first position can be compared to God's love for His children, and the above mentioned parents are His children too.
Next, let's look at this family relationship as seen (at the same time) by the child of the parents. When the small children hit puberty, I often wonder if the rush of hormones tends to temporarily make their minds go into "automatic", where every suggestion made by their parents or any other adult, comes into question as to the validity of the claim. Teenagers tend to question everything, from the fate of humanity to wearing the (ugly) shirt or blouse that Mom picked out. Teenagers are in their rebellious stage which can last well into their twenties. During this time, their perception of whether the parents REALLY love them or are simply "putting up with" them is thought about over and over again. The youth will be the ones who doubt, who question, who don't "feel" that parental love as often as they would like.
This second position can be compared to ALL of God's children, regardless of age, because age is not the determining factor to a successful, lasting, and meaningful relationship with our Great Father. I see no one has mentioned TRUST. In order to have faith in anything, for example, faith that the car will start), we must first TRUST ourselves to "know" that the engine will start. Once we trust our own observations and feelings, that trust will give us FAITH that the engine will start. Once we trust the car to start, our faith in that starting is well founded. What if the car does NOT start?
Does that mean that we, who trust ourselves to trust the car to start, have failed? Or does it mean that the car, whom we have trusted to start, now by not starting, should give us doubts as to our own understanding and faith in the car?
God THE Creator, has created all of us, every color, race, religion. He created the Agnostics and Atheists. He created the soldiers who tormented His son, Jesus. He created all that ever was or ever will be. And to each of us, He gave free will, or the ability to see the circumstances, and make decisions that are sound. We have the free will to do and say what we will, and to govern our lives according to principles we see as fundamentally true and just. As humans, we experience many doubts, some small, some life changing. The important thing here is that by virtue of being human, we will have doubts. We are imperfect, God is perfection in all things. He knows we have doubts, questions, feelings of abandonment...but He also expects that we will suffer if we make decisions based on criteria that do not include His divine teaching.
I remember growing up the admonition, "Take all things to God in prayer"...and this works fine for those who believe, but what does a non-believer do? What does one who has "lost his faith" do? What about the Agnostics and Atheists? What about countless millions who have died never knowing God exists? Whether you have lost your faith or never had it to begin with, really doesn't matter to God. He loves ALL His children. Period. He would like to have that love returned to Him in the form of trust and faith in Him, but it is not a requirement for God to continue loving His children. The Great Father of all humankind fully understands that we, His children, will have doubts. He understands His children ARE human. And imperfect, flawed.
We have trust first...trust that what God has promised He will deliver. Then we have a "growing" faith that God will continue to uphold His promises to us, His children. It would be quite difficult, if not impossible, to have faith in something we did not trust. Since, as humans, we cannot fully trust our own decisions if made without the benefit of prayer, then it follows that such decisions will lead to more doubt. More doubt will erode to a loss of faith. Keep doubting, and you will end up with the modern connotation of Agnostic. Keep doubting more, and you will find yourself in denial, hence, the Atheists.
Trust in a loving God, whose only real commandment (pre-10 Commandments), was "to love one another as you would Me". We call this The Golden Rule, and it carries with it more positive energy than all the "good works" done in the name of God. It gets us down to the personal level, and allows us to look at our own actions, and to treat humanity at large as if they were our closest friends.
The entire span of human emotion is a gift from God. The negative and positive emotions are a gift, for the opposing emotions are necessary for an individual to grow and be able to make good decisions based on all the criteria. When your teenager comes to you with questions, they may doubt your answers as much as you doubt they have told you the real reasons they asked. Just because everyone is doubting what the others have said, does NOT mean they love you any less, just as God does not love less those who doubt Him or His existence.
I'm not sure I would agree with re-reading the Bible, or "prayer vigils", or whatever as a means to restoring one's faith in God. A lot of the Bible is written in allegories or parables, sometimes quite vague, sometimes clearer. Simply reading the Bible or re-reading it countless times does NOT result in a trip to Heaven. Nor does it answer a lot of the emotional questions about God existing. What it does do, is give a somewhat factual account of a few thousand years of the human struggle, of human history. It is interlaced with countless admonitions to follow God, to do good works, to have TRUST and FAITH, and to obey the commandments of the Creator. Simply reading the Bible without reflection of its impact on our own lives, is no better, and of no more value than reading The Cat in the Hat, or any work of literature, great or small. The Bible, without taking it to our own personal level, is just a collection of words, and a lot of archaic speech which is harder to understand in our current "modern" society. Add in thousands of "Christian" literary works, and you still have just words, unless you find a personal meaning in them. It all comes down to the basic question of trust. We must trust ourselves first to be able to trust another, whether that other entity is God or another human.
Moderator cut: Off topic
Moderator cut: Off topic
My best advice: To restart your faith, look to nature...to the vast variety of plant and animal life there. Pick one or two favorite plants and/or animals. Let's try a butterfly...very beautiful and in hundreds of variations. The butterfly has not gone to church, does not read the Bible, does not pray, knows nothing about Atheists or those who have lost faith...yet the butterfly KNOWS he is taken care of. The butterfly has no real trust beyond his innate knowing that he will be cared for. This little butterfly has within itself, the knowledge that God has given it, to prosper and produce little butterfly larvae. This small insect was created by God. God directed it's life to be what it is. All God asks of it, it does, from carrying pollen that will help produce more divergent life, to finding a mate to propagate itself, to being an object which brings more beauty to the world. It is fulfilling it's small, but highly significant, role in the eyes of God. We, as humans, have a role to fill too. Whether that role is pleasing to God or not, God still loves us as if we had not sinned. If God has done so much for one small butterfly, what else might He do for His children? How can one look at the larvae which change miraculously into beautiful butterfly and exist in beauty as pleasing to God, taken care of by Him...how can one see this and not marvel at the omniscience of God?
Trust yourself to make sound decisions based on the precepts of The Golden Rule, and you will be making decisions which are pleasing to God. Continue to trust yourself, and your trust in God and His promises will grow. Continued trust in God will allow faith in that trust to grow.
Moderator cut: Off topic
Hope my rantings help...I have a clear understanding on the flood of Noah, and of the timeline for the dinosaurs to exist (mentioned in Bible as behemoths), and of the two creations of men, the second being the Adam and Eve account. The initial creation of men were at the same time as the existence of Lilith...this account does not appear in the Bible, but it is part of history pre-dating our Bible. There are many things mentioned in the Bible as we know it today. The Bible itself has been through many revisions, a lot of books were left out, others put in...usually by well meaning men who tried to think too much about repercussions. The core ideals of the Bible remain unchanged, as they are the core beliefs of God.
My prayers and blessings to you, as you struggle with your place in God's creation. God expects your doubts, He is ready with solutions when you are ready to receive them. His love endures all things, including doubt. Be not afraid, for God hears your strife, and loves you as His child. He will not abandon you, and you will be a pleasing soul as you stand before Him at the Final Judgment. I suspect many atheists, but not all, will acknowledge God the Creator at the Final Judgment.
The OP may in fact be correct. It is only by God's power that anyone can believe in Jesus and be saved.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Trimac, I declare my self a Christian and believer in Christ, and yet have (and do) struggle with many of the issues I believe you are struggling with.
I would caution to be careful about trying to force yourself to beleive what someone else wants you to believe, or accept someone else's explanation or interpretation of what faith is, or scripture says.
Let the holy spirit guide your heart!
Honestly, I have heard enough Pastor's preach about how their "brand" of Christianity is the "Truth" and denomination/church/group "X" is full of herecy.
Yet, at the end of the day, I have been led by the Spirit to believe that what is truly important is not to nitpick with other believers over the specifics of biblical interpretation, definition, etc. Any and all of that is just man's take on the Word, and anything of man is certainly imperfect.
That said, yes I do agree you are leaning agnostic at this point. I was an agnostic for a LONG time myself, before developing more of a true belief in Christ. That said, my faith does not hinge on the abolute biblical accuracy and interpretations that others may insist is necessary for true faith.
I do believe everyone needs to search out their own path and belief. Do so for yourself!
You are just a human and it is normal to lose that ability to have faith and confidence in God...cos you never had that ability..Human beings are almost incapable and most do not have the ability to understand what God is..It is a case of faith...When you look at the sky and beyond...you know the blue turns to black and the universe goes on and on without end...You can not conceive the end...because there is no end...God is a mystery....and a distant friend...This unimaginable powerful and eternal force can not be put in human terms...God is not like an uncle who does not give you money when you request it....GOD is GOD. The founding fathers may have had it right.............That right after creation- God set us free to fend for ourselves...with a few instructions sent by angels like Jesus....Don't worry about it....The best you can do is expect some mercy on your death bed......other than that....God has put your life in YOUR own hands...and may help on occasion if you have faith- and faith is confidence.
I think one problem is I've tried to FORCE myself to believe in the past. I naturally found stuff like Noah's Ark hard to take literally but I forced myself to believe it when I was 12 or so before I went through an agnostic stage, and now I can't seem to just believe naturally without those counterracting feelings. It's like the more i try the worse i make it. I think I believe am 'saved' but don't know for sure.
Honestly, this could go several ways. But the fact is no human other than you know what's in your heart besides God.
Scriptures has different advice depending on the person and attitude:
[1] The explanation of Sower and the seed Matthew 13:18-23
or
[2] being apathetic Rev 3:16
or
[3] The encouragement of hold our original conviction firmly to the very end Hebrew 3:14
or
[4] whom do you look to for strength when our failures succeed Matthew 11:28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
What else can I do? Should I explore other belief systems.etc, read more Christian books.etc? I think reading a lot of one POV may convince you, but like anything, after that fades you're left with your natural skepticism. My faith is buoyed every time i read a book like that but only briefly, and seemingly, less strongly than before..
I do not know how false beliefs would solve anything. That would be like contemplating a drink of water while you're drowning.
Listening to God from the Bible has one of two effects:
[a] The Holy Spirit works faith in your heart by his power
[b] A person chooses to reject the truth resulting by making his heart callouse Matthew 13:14-15
No need to reinvent the wheel - these questions have been grappled with since the beginning of time.
We have great reasoning capacity and we're expected to doubt. My advice is not to force yourself into anything, but rather read, read, read. Philosophers and theologists have written about this for thousands of years.
A more current book that may help: Mother Theresa: Come Be My Light.
I did 'declare my faith' it just seems it seems to wither away after time. I've 'said the prayer' on a number of occasions, so I think it's more a case of being convinced in my mind.
One might move their lips, but are the words coming from the heart. God is not interested in empty religious profession.
In the end, we all have a choice. We can only make our own however. You don't want to be on the other side remembering this conversation from the wrong place. According to the Bible, are consciousness remains (Luke 16). The man remembered his family and wanted them to repent.
It's something that's bothering me. It's been years since I've had that conviction that God - specifically the Biblical God - is actually real...like i believe, but I feel it's more like a hoping...when I pray, half of me believes it won't do anything. Is that what you call agnosticism? I mean I do believe/think there is a God, that the Bible broadly refers to the true God, but there are just so many things about the BIBLICAL God that prevent me from fully believing. I've prayed, try reading the Bible (but the problem is sometimes reading it makes it WORSE). What else can I do? I just crave peace of mind, but with my anxiety that's hard.
Maybe what is confusing you is reading other peoples opinions in book form...Many write very convincingly and you are being left with wondering where is the truth, all of these authors cannot be correct, especialy if they are contradicting each other...These are people that state that, 'this is the God of the bible', each and every one of them, and yet they differ in what they state...The thing is, only HaShem can give one repentance, it is not something self-willed, this is from the Scriptures, so maybe you should pray everyday to HaShem for repentance, which means a change of mind regarding something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
I think one problem is I've tried to FORCE myself to believe in the past. I naturally found stuff like Noah's Ark hard to take literally but I forced myself to believe it when I was 12 or so before I went through an agnostic stage, and now I can't seem to just believe naturally without those counterracting feelings. It's like the more i try the worse i make it. I think I believe am 'saved' but don't know for sure.
Well, their is obviously something in you that desires HaShem, otherwise you would not have 'forced yourself' to believe certain things, you would not be wasting your time with it at all, unless there was a divine spark inside you...What you may be 'forcing yourself' to believe is what others are telling you is truth...Only the Scriptures can tell you what is truth, anything outside that, take with a grain of salt...There are many that go to great lengths to disprove the Scriptures and allegedly have verifiable proof and many times I have found this 'proof' to be manipulated...The problem is, man has given his 'opinion' for over two thousand years, much of it based on bending Scriptures until they say what one wants to believe...And the anti-God group has fabricated all kinds of material to disprove HaShem and indirectly ridicule us for having faith in a God that they claim they have 'proof' does not exist...Regarding Noah's Ark, there still is no verifiable proof that it rests on Mt. Arrarat in Turkey...Others state that it is elsewhere, what is the truth?... I have read that the word Arrarat is Aramaic for simply 'the highest place'...Maybe you are attempting to force yourself to take all Scripture literally, when those portion that you are taking literally are actually meant as a metaphor...Like the story of Jonah, science state that back then in that particular area, there was not a fish big enough to accomadate a man, so we can conclude that the event never happened or it is a metaphor for something else, there is documentation of the three darkest days of the year being, 24, 25, 26, the winter soltice, referred to as 'Being in the belly of the whale', and since sinning is being in darkness it is natural that folks then adopted this as an idiom for sin, which is what Jonah was doing by trying to run from HaShem...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
What else can I do? Should I explore other belief systems.etc, read more Christian books.etc? I think reading a lot of one POV may convince you, but like anything, after that fades you're left with your natural skepticism. My faith is buoyed every time i read a book like that but only briefly, and seemingly, less strongly than before.
As I said, stay away from other's opinions...Adhere to the Scriptures, they will explain themselves...'the untaught and unstable twist the Scriptures to their own destruction'...
I've haven't had the feeling of assurance that I'll go to Heaven or that I'm a child of God for years...I thought i was going to die, and I didn't of the joy of being with God and other believers but of eternal nothingness...what faith I have isn't enough to make me faithfully follow the Lord's command. I guess if I do lose my faith and be damned than life was just a cruel joke . Well that's on the chance there even is damnation...I find the alternative of just ceasing to exist plain depressing, and renders life meaningless.[/quote]
See now that is anothers opinion, we go to heaven as soon as we die (based on a metaphor by Paul, that many take literally), however we are told in the Scriptures that we sleep until the Day of Resurrection...
What have you done in the past that may have caused the removal of your joy of Salvation?...As King David had done which caused the loss of his joy of Salvation...Many state that he had lost his Salvation of what he had done, but that is not what Scripture states, it state that he lost 'the joy of'...Not his Salvation itself...
Again, I tell you to ask HaShem for repentance....
Yet, at the end of the day, I have been led by the Spirit to believe that what is truly important is not to nitpick with other believers over the specifics of biblical interpretation, definition, etc. Any and all of that is just man's take on the Word, and anything of man is certainly imperfect.
Interesting, this is what Scripture tells us also...
One might move their lips, but are the words coming from the heart. God is not interested in empty religious profession.
In the end, we all have a choice. We can only make our own however. You don't want to be on the other side remembering this conversation from the wrong place. According to the Bible, are consciousness remains (Luke 16). The man remembered his family and wanted them to repent.
That parable has nothing to do with heaven or hell...
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. Well that's on the chance there even is damnation...I find the alternative of just ceasing to exist plain depressing, and renders life meaningless.
