The Gross Misrepresentation of Romans 5:12 (Lutherans, quotes, symbolize, confessions)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Eh???...How do you possibly spin this that way?....
I'm not 'spinning' anything. Why is it when ppl haven't studied things out for themsleves they accuse others of spinning or twisting things?
The word hear in Rom. 10:17 is, akoe; [not akouo] and means the process of hearing as a means to true spiritual understanding.
Also use here:
Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing [akoe] ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.
Gal. 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing [akoe] of faith?
1 Thess. 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard [akoe] of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Akoe is also found in the contexts of judgment, where God's ppl have become 'hard of hearing," and are placed under divine judgment. See Acts 28:26; and Heb. 5:11
You don't believe that we die because of Adam. You also say that no matter if Adam sinned or didn't sin he would have still died.
So the following statement means nothing - "The wages of sin is death", correct? If not correct, then what is the significance of sin?
First the words, wages of sinis death, needs to be read where it's written not pulled out of context.
Ro 6:
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things isdeath.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the endeverlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So these 5 verses are contrasting the 'last death' vs. eternal life. What is the final or last death? The second death also called the lake of fire.
Or in otherwords these passages are saying if ppl remain in their sinful ways they will not have eternal life, but in the end will be turned to ashes [cease to exsist] in the lake of fire; the second death.
Pretty serious stuff here.
So you are saying because I inherited Adam's sin [instead of knowing I am a sinner due to being in a flesh body], and because I do still occassionaly sin I will die the second death i.e be thrown into the lake of fire.
Don't think so...
I ask for forgivness and repent when the Spirit convicts....
Last edited by mshipmate; 01-11-2012 at 12:03 PM..
I'm not 'spinning' anything. Why is it when ppl haven't studied things out for themsleves they accuse others of spinning or twisting things?
The word hear in Rom. 10:17 is, akoe; [not akouo] and means the process of hearing as a means to true spiritual understanding.
Also use here:
Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing [akoe] ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.
Gal. 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing [akoe] of faith?
1 Thess. 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard [akoe] of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Akoe is also found in the contexts of judgment, where God's ppl have become 'hard of hearing," and are placed under divine judgment. See Acts 28:26; and Heb. 5:11
Do you mean these two words?...I see nothing here that implies a 'spiritual' hearing...Matthew 13:14 actually means 'By listening, you will hear but not understand what you hear'...One is a verb the other is a noun or verbal noun...
You can hear and listen and understand the words, but not understand the meaning of those words...
G189
ακοή
akoē
ak-o-ay'
From G191; hearing (the act, the sense or the thing heard): - audience, ear, fame, which ye heard, hearing, preached, report, rumor.
G191
ακούω
akouō
ak-oo'-o
A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.
I think I agree with you. I just need to know what what do you mean by the extra-biblical term 'spiritual death'?
I think the best way to explain is by scripture. Paul says we were dead iin our sins, and God made us alive together with Christ.
We know Paul is not referring to physical death here. Although he doesn't use the specific term "spiritual death," there is no doubt in my mind that this is what he means.
The definition of death is separation. When we die physically, our bodies are separted from our spirits and souls.
Isaiah 59:2 tells us sin separates us from God. When we are dead in sins, we are separated from God spiritually. We are spiritually dead.
That's how I see it Kids. Tell me how you see it. What does Paul mean when he says we were dead in our sins and He made us alive?
Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,..."
Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
If they didn't believe all that one can be born into sin then they wouldn't have asked Jesus this:
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
You are misrepresenting this verse. In no way is "original sin" being discussed here. The disciples are simply asking, "Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?"
The Jews then are no different than people today. It is a universal instinct to claim all sorrow and disease as the consequence of sin. When we see someone who seems to have an inordinate amount of bad things happen to them, we say, "Boy, this person must have really made God mad." People figure this person must have sinned big time.
Bringing this idea forward to modern times, it is MHO that children do suffer the consequences of what their parents do. Many children are born handicapped because of the actions of their parents (drugs, alcohol, etc.)
Research will show you that many Jews believed that people had a life prior to the current one (the doctrine of transmigration of souls). They believed that if you were a bad person in your last life, you would be punished for it in your next life, hence, be born blind or some other handicap. I don't think the disciples of Jesus believed this, but they were probably influenced by it in some way.
Jesus says that the man and his parents were guilty of nothing which might have caused the blindness. Jesus' followers were like millions today who think that every sufferer and every victim of crime, disease, or disaster has in some manner DESERVED the evil that came upon him.
1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
First the words, wages of sinis death, needs to be read where it's written not pulled out of context.
Ro 6:
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things isdeath.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the endeverlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So these 5 verses are contrasting the 'last death' vs. eternal life. What is the final or last death? The second death also called the lake of fire.
Or in otherwords these passages are saying if ppl remain in their sinful ways they will not have eternal life, but in the end will be turned to ashes [cease to exsist] in the lake of fire; the second death.
Pretty serious stuff here.
So you are saying because I inherited Adam's sin [instead of knowing I am a sinner due to being in a flesh body], and because I do still occassionaly sin I will die the second death i.e be thrown into the lake of fire.
Don't think so...
I ask for forgivness and repent when the Spirit convicts....
Very good post!
So many people take Romans 3:23 out of context. You do a good job showing the verse is contrasting spiritual death with eternal life.
It is impossible to inherit sin. Sin is something we do, not something we inherit. We are created in God's image. There are a dozen or more scriptures that teach this. God creates us with a pure spirit and soul, and as far as I know, there is no genetic marker for sin.
Any honest Bible student will research where the doctrine of original sin comes from. It began with the gnostics. Augustine became a member of the Manicheans, a gnostic sect. He bought into the doctrine of original sin and introduced it into the catholic church hundreds of years after Jesus established His church on the day of Pentecost. Original sin was never taught in the OT. Jesus never breathed a word about it. The apostles never taught it. The early church fathers didn't teach it either. It is a false doctrine.
Katie,
Can you refer to what post you think I didn't respond to?
#426 and #270
If you don't want to refute each of these scriptures I have posted, then what is the sense in having any further discussion? Every single scripture you have posted to me in support of "original sin," I have refuted. But you have not done the same for the scriptures I post to you. I have invested a lot of time in gathering together scriptures and reasoning with you that the doctrine of original sin is a false one. But if you don't answer, then it seems to be a total waste of my time.
If you want to continue to debate this topic with me, then I suggest we discuss one verse at a time, and when we have both thoroughly presented our cases for the one verse, then move on to another verse. Otherwise, we are spinning our wheels.
You have taken Romans 3:10 out of context. Let me explain how.
10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;"
What is Paul referring to when he says, "As it is written?" Paul was quoting from Psalm 14, in which the context makes it plain that the reference is to unbelievers, to the ones who say "There is no God." They are the ones who are not righteous, no, not one.
If Romans 3:10 were speaking of the entirety of mankind, then christians themselves would be included in the none are righteous, and we know that cannot be true.
Sorry Katie... but just because you think you've "refuted" means that it's correct. A christian by nature are not righteous. From what I can tell....you think people are conceived in a righteous state of being then going downward. That is simply not true no matter how much "refuting" you belief one can muster.
Romans 3:10 is speaking of the entirety of mankind
Isaiah 53:6 is speaking of the entirety of mankind "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way
Isaiah 64:6 is speaking of the entirety of mankind "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags"
Genesis 6:5 is speaking of the entirety of mankind ".. every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
We know there are righteous people. If the atonement of Jesus cannot make men righteous, then what can it do?
Compare Romans 3:10 with the following:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7
6And they (Zacharias and Elizabeth) were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6)
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:16)
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. (Matthew 13:17)
Romans 3:10 does not include christians, nor does it include babies. It is speaking of unbelievers, those who say there is no God.
Katie
A righteous man is not righteous because he\she began life that way; No one is exempt from the curse. That is evident by Psalm 51:5, it is from a believers view point. People are conceived with a sinful mind and a inclination of an evil heart.
Speaking of the tongue, James writes, "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;. James 3:9
The point of James 3: 1-10 is about taming the tongue ...not the underlined that somehow this shows people are conceived righteous. We know otherwise of this to be the truth because the scriptures repeatedly refutes that people are by nature righteous..
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29
Yes "God hath made man upright" ... Solomon is acknowledging a past tense and humanity abondoned that up-righteousness "but men have gone in search of many schemes".
People are not conceived righteous "Flesh gives birth to flesh"
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6 (long after the fall)
Again this is a reference to what once was at creation. Humanity lost that image.. which is perfection.... when Adam and Eve rebelled. That is why Jesus said " one must be born again"
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1
Zechariah was pointing out the LORD's all mighty power in creating life was about to destroy Jersusalems enemies. Zecheriah was not claiming that people are conceived righteous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
Job acknowledging who is responsible for life coming into existance... not that he was conceived righteous
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Ditto from the Psalmist about Job's claim
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14
The Psalmist acknowledging the miracle of conception itself and the forming of the person in the womb. Thye same Psalms acknowledge the reality of original sin in Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15
Job 31:15 is part of the larger point .... God is all knowing \ all powerful. Are we stupid enough to think we can hide any thoughts or Him not knowing how things will end up.
Has nothing about the fact of being conceived righteous.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5
God just declaring his omniscience
Has nothing about the fact of being conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10
Reading all of Malachi 2 will one easily realize that this isn't speaking of physically being conceived righteous. Just one verse later we know who this is about ... the falling away of Isreal.
God has made the spiritual house of of "Judah" perfect and Malachi was reminding of Isreal of their unrighteousness.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1
You do realize that Solomon is not to have been believed that he remain a believer by the time of his death. Ecclesiastes is really about how OSAS is not the truth. This verse is God reminding Solomon of the fact that Solomon is not where he should be spiritually.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not weourselves. Psalm 100:3
The Psalmist is here what you might say is refuting your very point.
God makes us a believer not weourselves because "we as babies are righteous not needing a savior"
That comment about babies not needing a savior is about as close I want to angrly reply with quoting Jesus who refuted Peter when he said:
“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
You totally blew me away with that......that has bothered me since you said that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7
If human had any righteousness in them from conception .. don't you think every baby would have been on board? ... "or it repenteth me that I have made them,.................. and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7
The topic of 1 Cor 11: 1-16 is about the properity of worship.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25
Acts 17:16-25....... Pauls sermon to the Athens. His point of verse 25 was part of him being greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29
see above
As should be obvious by now.... this has nothing to do about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
Jesus is reminding that he was the fullfillment of the OT prophecy about him: Isaiah 11:1 or Isaiah 53:1-3
this has nothing to do about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
I hope this satisfied you that I don't respond... but I don't know how good it was for me to do it.
But have a good day anyway.
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-13-2012 at 12:59 PM..
Twin, you are wrong. God is the Creator of all men. This is one of the clearest truths taught in the Bible.
Speaking of the tongue, James writes, "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;. James 3:9
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29 For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6 (long after the fall)
The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1
Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not weourselves. Psalm 100:3
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7
Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7
He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25
We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29
I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Katie,
response to post # 270
The point of James 3: 1-10 is about taming the tongue ...not the underlined that somehow this shows people are conceived righteous. We know otherwise of this to be the truth because the scriptures repeatedly refutes that people are by nature righteous..
Yes "God hath made man upright" ... Solomon is acknowledging a past tense and humanity abondoned that up-righteousness "but men have gone in search of many schemes".
People are not conceived righteous "Flesh gives birth to flesh"
Again this is a reference to what once was at creation. Humanity lost that image.. which is perfection.... when Adam and Eve rebelled. That is why Jesus said " one must be born again"
Zechariah was pointing out the LORD's all mighty power in creating life was about to destroy Jersusalems enemies. Zecheriah was not claiming that people are conceived righteous.
Job acknowledging who is responsible for life coming into existance... not that he was conceived righteous
Ditto from the Psalmist about Job's claim
The Psalmist acknowledging the miracle of conception itself and the forming of the person in the womb. Thye same Psalms acknowledge the reality of original sin in Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Job 31:15 is part of the larger point .... God is all knowing \ all powerful. Are we stupid enough to think we can hide any thoughts or Him not knowing how things will end up.
Has nothing about the fact of being conceived righteous.....
God just declaring his omniscience
Has nothing about the fact of being conceived righteous....
Reading all of Malachi 2 will one easily realize that this isn't speaking of physically being conceived righteous. Just one verse later we know who this is about ... the falling away of Isreal.
God has made the spiritual house of of "Judah" perfect and Malachi was reminding of Isreal of their unrighteousness.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
You do realize that Solomon is not to have been believed that he remain a believer by the time of his death. Ecclesiastes is really about how OSAS is not the truth. This verse is God reminding Solomon of the fact that Solomon is not where he should be spiritually.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
The Psalmist is here what you might say is refuting your very point.
God makes us a believer not weourselves because "we as babies are righteous not needing a savior"
That comment about babies not needing a savior is about as close I want to angrly reply with quoting Jesus who refuted Peter when he said:
“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
You totally blew me away with that......that has bothered me since you said that.
If human had any righteousness in them from conception .. don't you think every baby would have been on board? ... "or it repenteth me that I have made them,.................. and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
The topic of 1 Cor 11: 1-16 is about the properity of worship.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Acts 17:16-25....... Pauls sermon to the Athens. His point of verse 25 was part of him being greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Has nothing about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
see above
As should be obvious by now.... this has nothing to do about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
Jesus is reminding that he was the fullfillment of the OT prophecy about him: Isaiah 11:1 or Isaiah 53:1-3
this has nothing to do about the fact of being physically conceived righteous....
I hope this satisfied you that I don't respond... but I don't know how good it was for me to do it.
But have a good day anyway.
Katie, do not be dissuaded into the Evil belief that we are "filthy rags" born with original sin. We have to learn what is Good and Evil after we are born. Then we just have to grow to prefer and choose the Good over Evil AFTER we know the difference, period.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
