The Relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ (Buddhism, Jehovah, churches)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

So, the Holy Ghost is God's spirit sort of like I have my own spirit or life force?

Some Christians see it that way, I think. Mormons believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost each have their own spirit, or life force. You've seen wedding greeting cards describing the newlyweds as "one flesh," or a 300-voice choir described in a newspaper review as singing with "one voice" or a jury of twelve agreed on a verdict as being of "one mind." I believe in three distinct spirits or life forces in perfect, absolute unity of purpose. But in that it's a life force like yours and mine, yes, and in that I believe it is eternal and cannot be destroyed, yes.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by SisterKat

I have been where you are. I used to blindly accept the trinity. It isn’t scripturally there! Nor is Jesus God! None of that is true. To really believe Jesus is God, you have to completely accept what your church teaches, and blind yourself to the hundreds if not thousands of scripture that prove it false beyond any reasonable logic or doubt.

Sheer logic alone prove Jesus isn’t God. He is a separate thing. He is created (begotten by God). He had a beginning. God never had a creator. Jesus died. God cannot die!

Your statements stand in stark opposition to the word of God. To make a statement that the trinity 'isn't scripturally there' is sheer denial. The word trinity isn't used. But the reality of the triune nature of God is clearly revealed. The Bible - the written word of God is explicit that Jesus Christ is God. The trinity is one of the fundamental truths of Christianity. No one who is eternally saved denies the deity of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-3, 14 and Phil 2:6 are but two of the many Scriptures which reveal the deity of Jesus Christ. That He is God. But all this has been gone over before with you in the past, and yet you deny the truth. To believe in Christ includes understanding that He is God. If you do not understand that Jesus Christ is God than you do not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. jesus stated in John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

The trinity in the Old Testament can be seen in Isa 48:16. 'Come close to Me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now the Lord God (Adonai Elohim) and His Spirit, have sent Me. This is Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the trinity speaking. Isa 48:12 confirms this. ''Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Now compare Isa 48:12 with Revelation 22:12 ''Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13] ''I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.''

Jesus Christ is the first and the last. The Alpha and the Omega. He is God. Co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah chapter 48 speaks plainly of the fact that Jesus Christ is God. Isa 48:2 ''...And lean on the God of Israel, The LORD of hosts is His name.' It is Jesus Christ who is the God of Israel and the Lord of hosts.

Isa 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name wil be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness Form then on tha forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Put things together. Connect the dots. Jesus Christ is God.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one being - then why are there three separate parts? It kind of makes God sound like a 3 headed monster or something.

I wish I could find online the same pictures I have in a book I own. If there is something like this online, my search criteria isn't picking it up. Prior to when the Nicene Creed decided that God was three-in-one and one-in-three, all Christian art depicted the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as three distinct individuals. After the "Trinity" was described, though, Christian art began to evolve and God was actually generally depicted as three-headed. I'm looking at five such pictures right now. Eventually that changed, but it was the initial reaction to this new doctrine that was suddenly declared to be orthodox.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Some Christians see it that way, I think. Mormons believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost each have their own spirit, or life force. You've seen wedding greeting cards describing the newlyweds as "one flesh," or a 300-voice choir described in a newspaper review as singing with "one voice" or a jury of twelve agreed on a verdict as being of "one mind." I believe in three distinct spirits or life forces in perfect, absolute unity of purpose. But in that it's a life force like yours and mine, yes, and in that I believe it is eternal and cannot be destroyed, yes.

So, if the Holy Ghost has it's own spirit - what does it do? What is it's purpose? What is it's... personality, for lack of a better word.
Sorry I'm asking so many questions - this is something that I have never understood. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me!

[CantWait2Leave]

Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

God never changes:
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Savior:
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Savior... Jude 1:12

God our Savior. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior. I Timothy 4:10

God my Savior. Luke 1:4

Jesus is the only Savior:
...the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

...our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

...God and our Savior Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

...the Christ, the Savior of the world. John 4:42

...the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. Titus 1:4

a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12

...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10

[Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9

God created the universe and earth by Himself:
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
[u]nto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

[b]y him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3

God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1

Jesus is the Word.
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14

God is the first and the last
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus is the first and the last:
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

God forgives sins:
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3

"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Jesus forgives sins:
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

God is our redeemer:
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Jesus redeemed us.
[T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14

God is one:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus and God are one:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

God is the Holy One:
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)

Jesus is the Holy One:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

God is Messiah:
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is Messiah:
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26

God is from everlasting:
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2

Messiah Yeshua [Jesus] is from everlasting:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2

Only God is glorified:
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8

God glorified Jesus:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14

Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

God is the Judge of the whole earth:
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2

[Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25

Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth:
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

Okay, I'll stop, but there are more.

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

To deny that Jesus is God is to completely deny the scriptures.

[Dewdroplet76]

Mike - so if Jesus Christ is God... then when Jesus Christ was on earth - was there no God in the heavens or wherever you believe that God lives? When Jesus was here - was he human or was he God? If he was God - then how could he have died? And if he was God - then him coming back to life wasn't really that miraculous - was it? I mean, if Jesus was God - he could do whatever he wanted to do - right? If they are all the same thing -why are they referred to differently? Why not have just one name? Please don't yell at me, too! I'm sincerely curious and it just really doesn't make sense to me!

[Michael Way]

I have taken part of my last post and isolated it here to ensure that it isn't overlooked.


The trinity in the Old Testament can be seen in Isa 48:16. 'Come close to Me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now the Lord God (Adonai Elohim) and His Spirit, have sent Me.' This is Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the trinity speaking. Isa 48:12 confirms this. ''Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.' Now compare Isa 48:12 with Revelation 22:12 ''Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13] ''I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.''

Jesus Christ is the first and the last. The Alpha and the Omega. He is God. Co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah chapter 48 speaks plainly of the fact that Jesus Christ is God. Isa 48:2 ''...And lean on the God of Israel, The LORD of hosts is His name.' It is Jesus Christ who is the God of Israel and the Lord of hosts.

Isa 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name wil be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness Form then on tha forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Put things together. Connect the dots. Jesus Christ is God.

I tell all who have not come to the realization of the deity of Christ that NO ONE who denies that Jesus Christ is God believes in the real Jesus and therefore is NOT SAVED.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I have taken part of my last post and isolated it here to ensure that it isn't overlooked.

Okay... so I take it that you aren't going to answer my questions... That's alright. It seems to me that anyone can quote the Bible to back up whatever they believe - I'm more interested in having people explain things to me in their own words. It's easier for me to understand what people believe that way. Bible passages can be interpreted in a number of ways. I know, I know - the literalists don't believe that - but I can only say that when I look at the passages - I, myself, can see a bunch of different ways to interpet them.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

So, if the Holy Ghost has it's own spirit - what does it do? What is it's purpose? What is it's... personality, for lack of a better word.
Sorry I'm asking so many questions - this is something that I have never understood. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me!

Okay, recognize that you're going to get a different answer from me than you'll get from a Trinitarian. With that in mind...

I believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ both have physical bodies. By "physical" I mean "corporeal." Jesus Christ was said to be "the express image of His Father's person." In other words, He looked like His Father, and His Father had the appearance of a person. As God's Only Begotten Son, Jesus had all of the physical and non-physical attributes of His Father. The fact that their bodies are physical does NOT, however, mean that they are mortal. They are not. They are perfect, immortal and forever unchanging. They are not subject to aging, disfigurement, disease or death. (Jesus Christ took on the qualities of a mortal man during his life on earth and, through His mortal mother, inherited the mortal ability to die. From His Father (God), He inherited the ability to rise again after death. Once He was resurrected, He was immortal and could never die again.)

Traditional Christians see God (the Father, Son and Holy Ghost combined as one essence) as being "omnipresent," or present everywhere at the same time. The Bible doesn't actually teach this. It doesn't teach that God is physically everywhere. As a matter of fact, the only times the scriptures mention God as "being" anywhere, it's "in Heaven." Jesus prayed to His Father "in Heaven." He constantly referred to Him as being "in Heaven." When Jesus ascended into Heaven, it was to be with His Father who was there waiting for Him. When Stephen looked into Heaven and saw Jesus Christ on the right hand of the Father, you have to wonder how He figured out which side of God Christ was on if there weren't two distinct persons.

Okay, so that presents a problem. If God is only "in Heaven," how can He be with me? Here's how I would demonstrate the difference between "functional omnipresence" and "ontological omnipresence."

Picture a piece of paper with sixteen pin-sized holes in it. If you were to want to want to plug all sixteen holes simultaneously, how many needles would you need? Sixteen? No, just one. If the paper is folded in fourths both ways, a single needle would fit through all sixteen holes at the same time. Mormons believe in the "functional omnipresence" of God while most Christians believe in the "ontological omnipresence" of God. In other words, He functions as if He were present everywhere, even though He is physically in Heaven.

Now, how does He do this? He does so through the power of the Holy Ghost, who actually can be everywhere at once, having no physical body. The Holy Ghost is a force that can fill the universe but whose presence can be felt by many people at the same time (like a needle can pierce a piece of paper sixteen times simultaneously). So, whereas the Father and the Son are not ontologically omnipresent, the Holy Ghost is.

The Holy Ghost's purpose is to communicate truth to human beings. It does so with what has been called "a still small voice." It's an undeniable, yet silent way of communication. The Holy Ghost is also the Comforter. It's He who comforts, supports and sustains a person who is experiencing trials. The Holy Ghost has a few other functions, but I see those two as being the most important.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Okay, recognize that you're going to get a different answer from me than you'll get from a Trinitarian. With that in mind...

I believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ both have physical bodies. By "physical" I mean "corporeal." Jesus Christ was said to be "the express image of His Father's person." In other words, He looked like His Father, and His Father had the appearance of a person. As God's Only Begotten Son, Jesus had all of the physical and non-physical attributes of His Father.

Traditional Christians see God (the Father, Son and Holy Ghost combined as one essence) as being "omnipresent," or present everywhere at the same time. The Bible doesn't actually teach this. It doesn't teach that God is physically everywhere. As a matter of fact, the only times the scriptures mention God as "being" anywhere, it's "in Heaven." Jesus prayed to His Father "in Heaven." He constantly referred to Him as being "in Heaven." When He ascended into Heaven, it was to be with His Father who was there. When Stephen looked into Heaven and saw Jesus Christ on the right hand of the Father, you have to wonder how He figured out which side of God Christ was on if there weren't two distinct persons.

Okay, so that presents a problem. If God is only "in Heaven," how can He be with me? Here's how I would demonstrate the difference between "functional omnipresence" and "ontological omnipresence."

Picture a piece of paper with sixteen pin-sized holes in it. If you were to want to want to plug all sixteen holes simultaneously, how many needles would you need? Sixteen? No, just one. If the paper is folded in fourths both ways, a single needle would fit through all sixteen holes at the same time. Mormons believe in the "functional omnipresence" of God while most Christians believe in the "ontological omnipresence" of God. In other words, He functions as if He were present everywhere, even though He is physically in Heaven.

Now, how does He do this? He does so through the power of the Holy Ghost, who actually can be everywhere at once, having no physical body. The Holy Ghost is a force that can fill the universe but whose presence can be felt by many people at the same time (like a needle can pierce a piece of paper sixteen times simultaneously). So, whereas the Father and the Son are not ontologically omnipresent, the Holy Ghost is.

The Holy Ghost's purpose is to communicate truth to human beings. It does so with what has been called "a still small voice." It's an undeniable, yet silent way of communication. The Holy Ghost is also the Comforter. It's He who comforts, supports and sustains a person who is experiencing trials. The Holy Ghost has a few other functions, but I see those two as being the most important.

Thank you. It's still hard for me to grasp - but I think I have a better understanding of things now. The needle and the paper part really helped. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to ignorant, little ole me!