Hipsters and Yuppies and Frat Bros, Oh My! (Chicago, Simpson: loans, lawyers)

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by chet everett

There are interesting trends about who is enrolled in what kinds of graduate programs : nsf.gov - S&E Indicators 2012 - Chapter 2. Higher Education in Science and Engineering - Graduate Education, Enrollment, and Degrees in the United States - US National Science Foundation (NSF)

If more US students followed the lead of their foriegn classmates they would major in fields that have much better employment prospects.

This also ties in with rparz's comment, though. You can't really predict the future supply in any given field now that we are "globalized."

Do you guys not remember when getting a degree in web design or tech support was a sure-fire ticket to a great job? Then the rest of the world caught up, and now you are competing with India tech centers and technology which is increasingly making all but the highest-end web design doable at home.

Or look at say, sound/recording engineers. Once upon a time if you wanted to cut an album you needed to get the money to book studios which cost thousands of dollars a day, which is why big labels ran the music world. They would provide a huge advance, bands would take the money and not realize that the recording costs would be taken out of it, so many ended up indebted to the labels.

I'd certainly agree that engineering degrees have lifelong value, but some other ones are pretty questionable - I understand there is a monster surplus of lawyers right now.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

... remember when getting a degree in web design or tech support was a sure-fire ticket to a great job? ...

I sort of vaguely remember seeing late TV commercials touting the value of signing up with some outfit of dubious repute to learn these things, but an actually DEGREE from a real college / university? Not so much. And I doubt that anyone that actually earns a Masters or PhD has any such major field of study.

Real CS grads that can actually do useful things remain a pretty hot commodity, as do folks who've completed demanding coursework in fields that have objective standards / regulated paths of advancement, being an accounting major at a non-ACBSP "school" or studying chemistry at a school not in compliance with ACS standards is likely not a prudent of one's time or money. In Illinois there are just SIX schools with ABET accreditation for CS...

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by chet everett

I sort of vaguely remember seeing late TV commercials touting the value of signing up with some outfit of dubious repute to learn these things, but an actually DEGREE from a real college / university? Not so much. And I doubt that anyone that actually earns a Masters or PhD has any such major field of study.

Real CS grads that can actually do useful things remain a pretty hot commodity, as do folks who've completed demanding coursework in fields that have objective standards / regulated paths of advancement, being an accounting major at a non-ACBSP "school" or studying chemistry at a school not in compliance with ACS standards is likely not a prudent of one's time or money. In Illinois there are just SIX schools with ABET accreditation for CS...

I don't disagree with you regarding the current situation and at least short-term projections.

All I'm saying is your fellow Americans are no longer your only (if even primary) competition for jobs, in general.

Regardless of your skill set, there are billions of people on planet Earth. If your job doesn't require your physical presence, like a surgeon or a waiter, somebody is out there trying to figure out a way to get it done overseas for less money.

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

I'd certainly agree that engineering degrees have lifelong value, but some other ones are pretty questionable - I understand there is a monster surplus of lawyers right now.

I've been hearing about the "surplus of lawyers" since I was in college back in the 80s. I didn't see proof of it then, and I don't see proof of it now. Supply and Demand would say that if there were a surplus of lawyers, then no lawyers would make high salaries, as there would always be another lawyer who would do the job cheaper.

And not all people with a JD end up practicing law. Most politicians are lawyers, for example. And the agents that work with professinal athletes, musicians, and entertainers - lawyers.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by JacksonPanther

I've been hearing about the "surplus of lawyers" since I was in college back in the 80s. I didn't see proof of it then, and I don't see proof of it now. Supply and Demand would say that if there were a surplus of lawyers, then no lawyers would make high salaries, as there would always be another lawyer who would do the job cheaper.

And not all people with a JD end up practicing law. Most politicians are lawyers, for example. And the agents that work with professinal athletes, musicians, and entertainers - lawyers.

I think at some level folks understand that a newly graduated lawyer, even if they went to a stellar law school and smoked the bar exam, is in no way the equal of an experienced mid-career attorney that has specialized experience. Pretty much all lawyers limit their practice to rather specialized sub-areas : practices that assist firms in mergers and aquistions are not going to let some 24 year old rookie deal with the complex negotiation that a seasoned pro has seen fall apart or end successfully over something as subtle as how the outgoing chairmen's role is described in the SEC filings...

If you do criminal work and you bust your tail for a few years in the public defenders office you really are better equiped to defend folks that can help you pay for your armored Escalade when their drug lord fiends try to ruin your day...

The list is the same for tax attorneys or personal injury lawyers or even, imagine, real estste attorney, where newbies routinely learn their lesson at the expense of wise old sharpies on the other side of the deal that crank out tricky closing clauses like nobody in law school ever teachers.


The fact is that if you are smart kid with decent connections and normalish social skills that goes to a respectable law school with almuni in the region you are likely facing far lower starting salaries and far fewer options than you were just a few years ago.

[rparz]

I'm just purely speculating, but I'd hazard a guess that if you went to law school and passed the bar, even if you couldn't land a gig practicing law, you could apply and have a shot at many other positions totally unrelated to law.

Smart, good work ethic, and knows enough about law to keep the company out of trouble?
Sounds like a universal skillset any company would value.

[Prost]

Originally Posted by rparz

I'm just purely speculating, but I'd hazard a guess that if you went to law school and passed the bar, even if you couldn't land a gig practicing law, you could apply and have a shot at many other positions totally unrelated to law.

Smart, good work ethic, and knows enough about law to keep the company out of trouble?
Sounds like a universal skillset any company would value.

That is true, but it's not always worth the debt law students have to incur. Many are learning the hard way. Lots of press over the past few years illustrating this. There has been some good discussion recently about modifying law education and allowing people to take the bar before the end of the standard three years. Why keep incurring debt when you can pass the bar after a year or two?

Also, the internet has decreased the need for junior associates, who used to spend hours upon hours doing research for cases. If you go to a top tier school, you'll probably be fine; John Marshall Law, you'll have a harder time. A JD is not a sure path to riches.

[Irishtom29]

Why not just let people read for the bar? Worked for old Abe Lincoln and Andy "by the Eternal" Jackson. Then once they pass the bar the market will determine their worth. A person might learn more as an apprentice with a sharp lawyer than in law school.

[rparz]

While I learned a lot as an apprentice myself, that's not the way the world works anymore.

My uncle is a partner for a firm in Chicago and he doesn't want to teach any of the associates anything because he says 'Why? So they can take MY job?'

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by rparz

While I learned a lot as an apprentice myself, that's not the way the world works anymore.

My uncle is a partner for a firm in Chicago and he doesn't want to teach any of the associates anything because he says 'Why? So they can take MY job?'

In most functional law firms the partners that care about the long term financial / reputational health of the organization do spend a considerable amount of time helping jr associates grow in skills / capabilities...

The selection of new hires is also a critical part of most functional firms -- it is not unlike professional sports teams draftings the "next generation" of talent.