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A lot of "brain drain" of the "smartest people" leaves the midwest entirely for the coasts. More law grads from UMichigan go to NY than Illinois for example at an 18% to 12% clip.
Even for Chicago schools, more leave than stay. Only 35.8% of UChicago law grads stay in Chicago. More of them go to California/NYC/DC at a rate of 36.7%
It's similar for the J schools and other advanced degrees at top schools. Aren't those the "best and brightest" of the Midwest? And not the Indiana, Wisconsin and Ohio State undergrad business majors flooding Chicago at entry level jobs and partying it up in Lakeview and Lincoln Park?
What percentage of those graduates came from elsewhere in the country, however? Since schools like Michigan and U of Chicago are so highly regarded, this means that they also have the ability to pull in students from across the country instead of just predominantly the Midwesterners.
I don't doubt the statistic at all, but it would be interesting to see how many of the people leaving weren't even from the Midwest to begin with in comparison to those people who decided to stay.
In regards to my own experience, I can say that Chicago did draw me away from the St. Louis area for college, and that I stayed after that.
I enjoy St. Louis, but Chicago simply has far more to offer in addition to the bigger city lifestyle that I crave. If the positive developments that have been going on in St. Louis continue, however, I could see myself moving back when I'm older and ready to settle down, but, if St. Louis isn't able to pull itself back together, then Chicago is pretty much keeping me by default unless some other city snags my attention.
I'm one of those weird people who isn't draw to the Sun Belt in the slightest. I even have family in Los Angeles, and I enjoy visiting them and seeing LA, but I would need a serious incentive to want to leave Chicago for LA.
What percentage of those graduates came from elsewhere in the country, however? Since schools like Michigan and U of Chicago are so highly regarded, this means that they also have the ability to pull in students from across the country instead of just predominantly the Midwesterners.
I don't doubt the statistic at all, but it would be interesting to see how many of the people leaving weren't even from the Midwest to begin with in comparison to those people who decided to stay.
Good point, though the Big 10 universities tend to be heavily in-state, so I think in many cases you are talking people from the Midwest who are leaving.
Even University of Michigan, which is famous for attracting an East Coast crowd, is still majority in-state. Places like Ohio State and Michigan State are actually overwhelmingly in-state.
Good point, though the Big 10 universities tend to be heavily in-state, so I think in many cases you are talking people from the Midwest who are leaving.
Even University of Michigan, which is famous for attracting an East Coast crowd, is still majority in-state. Places like Ohio State and Michigan State are actually overwhelmingly in-state.
Most universities and colleges are heavily in state and it is true of schools on the coasts too. UCLA is even more in state than Michigan State and Ohio State for example. The Cal State system barely has any out of staters either.
According to this link at least, here's the percentage of out of staters at various schools. It appears as if anything over about 12-15% is a lot. Based on this, some Big Ten/midwestern schools are absolutely leaders in the "out of state" business when compared to other universities.
Some things depend on the career. The vast majority of people I know that attended school in Boston and or the New England area, moved away after school. Lots of Universities in Boston, and a sizable college aged population. But almost all that I have known, left after college. The ones who stayed, went away for school from that area and came back because they were from there, and/or they work in the Medical field.
D.C. All the ones I know who moved there and/or stayed work for the Govt, or work in the private sector related to the Govt.
Many that I have known have moved back home or regionally close to home after school. It's very common. The ones who didn't were in a specific field that was unique enough that they went elsewhere.
Many I have known that moved to NYC have stayed there. The ones who have moved to the Bay Area have stayed because of tech sector and lifestyle.
Many Coastal people I have known that have moved to Chicago, moved back out East. I can say the same for Wash U. in St. Louis. Wash. U. gets kids from everywhere Nationally and Internationally. But there is a sizable Northeast student population. Most of them go back to the Northeast instead of Stl or Chicago, but not all.
Taking myself for example, I grew up in the Midwest, and went to undergrad in the Midwest. Chicago was a destination place for many post grad Midwesterners, but not all. I was more interested in the Coasts at that point for something different, to follow up on some coastal internships while in school. I had Midwest fatigue.
For me Chicago is a great city, and International City, but still a very Midwestern feel. And that isn't an insult in any way. It's just how it feels to me, and to many I know too. Some people like that Midwestern feel to it and some don't. For the people I know that moved to Chicago from the Midwest, Chicago is a big city with a little more going on, but it's still feels similar to those people who maybe want to relocate somewhere larger, but not too radically different. For me Chicago wasn't different enough for what I was seeking. And, some of the differences that did exist weren't my favorites. (Weather, traffic) The single biggest reason for me for living in Chicago has been being close to family that I take care of.
It may surprise some Chicagoans, but I know many people who have moved back to some smaller cities, towns, etc...when they wanted to start a family etc...because they felt it was easier and more comfortable for them or to be near family. It really is a variety, a mix. Chicago for some others still presents itself as close enough to home for the others that stayed. The ones not interested in the family proximity either stayed or moved out of the Midwest altogether.
Most universities and colleges are heavily in state and it is true of schools on the coasts too. UCLA is even more in state than Michigan State and Ohio State for example. The Cal State system barely has any out of staters either.
But you're not really comparing equivalents.
The Midwest is dominated by state schools, which are all heavily in-state. The East coast is dominated by private schools, which are all not heavily in-state. California is mostly state schools and heavily in-state, but California is a massive state, and the UC system is specifically designed to be an in-state friendly system, with few slots open for out-of-state.
The dominant conference in the Midwest is the Big 10, and the dominant conference in the Northeast is the Ivy League. The Ivy League is to NYC as the Big 10 is to Chicago.
I am willing to bet that the Ivy League schools draw people to the Northeast much morso than the Big 10 schools draw people to the Midwest, and once they're there, they stay there. The same goes for West coast Pac 10 schools, whether public or private. I think with the Big 10 schools, most of the out-of-state students do not remain in the state where they attend university, and many leave the Midwest altogether (obviously some stay, though).
And if you look at your list of state schools by % in-state, it's the same nationwide. You can see that big states, like Texas and California, will have huge in-state populations (because of obvious reasons of population and geography) and then small states, especially those close to big states, will have smaller-in-state populations. So, for example, I guarantee Delaware will have a big non-Delaware population, and I guarantee the SUNY and CUNY systems will have big in-state populations.
The Midwest is dominated by state schools, which are all heavily in-state.
I think it's safe to say you didn't go to the link I actually provided because you wouldn't be saying this. The list in the link was heavily for public state type of universities around the countries. They don't have NYU, Cal Tech, U of Chicago, Northwestern, etc on there. Obviously those are going to be higher percentages of out of state, but I'm not about to make data up. I looked for data on it for 5 minutes but couldn't find it.
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And if you look at your list of state schools by % in-state, it's the same nationwide. You can see that big states, like Texas and California, will have huge in-state populations (because of obvious reasons of population and geography) and then small states, especially those close to big states, will have smaller-in-state populations. So, for example, I guarantee Delaware will have a big non-Delaware population, and I guarantee the SUNY and CUNY systems will have big in-state populations.
This is not my list. See above.
That's a valid point, and one that carries a little weight. However, schools like UC Berkeley, Texas, and UCLA have extremely high academic reputations and it's utterly surprising that their out of state percentages are *that* low. These are schools that for many programs are rated extremely highly - top 10 or 15 usually that should be attracting more out of state students, even if their states have high populations.
Their out of state percentages are even lower than some lesser schools like a Ball State and to me it's weird because those schools I mentioned have some very, very well regarded programs. In the latest national rankings too, Cal is rated 20th overall, UCLA is 23rd, and Texas is 52nd. Part of the problem is that these schools, along with schools like Illinois have extremely low acceptance rates for out of state students. I know from experience first hand for UCLA, Cal, and Illinois since I applied to all of those schools. A lot of my family members including my dad went to UCLA and they tell me how hard it is to get accepted if you're out of state. Even in state has very low acceptance rates for UCLA and Cal. UCLA is 22% and Cal is 18% overall. Michigan is only 36%
Last edited by marothisu; 12-27-2013 at 11:20 AM..
In regards to my own experience, I can say that Chicago did draw me away from the St. Louis area for college, and that I stayed after that.
I enjoy St. Louis, but Chicago simply has far more to offer in addition to the bigger city lifestyle that I crave. If the positive developments that have been going on in St. Louis continue, however, I could see myself moving back when I'm older and ready to settle down, but, if St. Louis isn't able to pull itself back together, then Chicago is pretty much keeping me by default unless some other city snags my attention.
I'm one of those weird people who isn't draw to the Sun Belt in the slightest. I even have family in Los Angeles, and I enjoy visiting them and seeing LA, but I would need a serious incentive to want to leave Chicago for LA.
I grew up and went to college in St Louis. I left college and lived in Durham and Charlotte NC, Memphis and now Chicago.
When I left St Louis, I left thinking I needed to expand my life outside of St Louis and the Midwest. As far as a St Louis and Chicago comparison... they don't in any way! I like them both for different reasons its kind of like comparing a steak dinner to a salad. It depends on what stage you are in life and what's conducive to your needs now. St. Louis and other cities like it will never have a Gold Coast type experience. Nor will they have a rail system like CTA. It doesn't have to be like Chicago to be a functional city. They do have other benefits.
I've experience major changes in my life the past year and Chicago is no longer the place and St Louis is more in line with what I'm looking for. I am with you on not liking the newer Sunbelt cities. They don't do it for me at all.
This topic is crazy to me because I know that Chicago isn't the only great city. And not every Midwestern smart person wants to move here. When people talk about this being fly over country and say there is nothing in the Midwest outside of Chicago is not writing from experience. There are many Chicagoans living in St Louis, Cleveland, Kansas City and Indianapolis who don't look back. That tells us something about people who think Chicago is the only deal in the Midwest.
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