More teacher strikes? WTF! (lawyers, home, schools)

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by Nafster

Is it a teacher's job to make sure a kid comes to school on time?

Is it a teacher's job to make sure a kid does his homework?

Is it a teacher's job to make sure a kid doesn't drink alcohol and do drugs?

Teachers are guiding forces and influences, but they are NOT there to hold their kid's hands 24/7.

Aren't these anti-Union/pro-Charter school people the same ones that preach about personal responsibility?

How about looking at the kid themselves and their FAMILY LIFE as part of the overall equation as to why a kid is underperforming!

This is an honest question: Even in the worst schools and under the worst circumstances, what percentage of students does this apply to? Seriously, because I don't know.

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by lenniel

This is an honest question: Even in the worst schools and under the worst circumstances, what percentage of students does this apply to? Seriously, because I don't know.

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

In many low income areas that would still be 75% or more of the school! And in fact, there are lots of BD classes in lots of schools -- they're still tested and counted the same way though, so these kids will have a grievous effect on test scores. That's why focusing so closely on test scores -- at least for school to school comparisons (year over year comparisons are a different story as these can be useful indicators of progress) is essentially useless.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by lenniel

In my professional life, I have 3 choices if I'm unhappy or not performing.
1) Quit and find another job
2) Get fired and find another job
3) Suck it up, do whatever I need to do to meet managements expectations so that I don't have to take option 2.

Why should teaching be different. If the conditions are so poor and the pay is so low, don't be a teacher, or don't be a public school teacher.

They are quitting and finding other jobs. The most recent numbers show that half of all teachers leave within 5 years, and in the worst schools one third of all teachers leave in the first year. If your goal is to just tell teachers to "suck it up", well, that's what we're doing now and it isn't working. If the goal is to create better schools and increase student performance then it needs to be looked at in a different way.

I think comparing private businesses to education misses the point of education entirely. Private businesses can easily gauge success by looking at profits in the short term. Education needs to be judged over a much longer time frame, and success is much harder to define (I've posted plenty of things about why standardized tests are not a good indicator of success, there's lots of info here that explains why). Ultimately no one should care one speck about test scores. What matters are graduation, college acceptance, and employment rates. THAT is what the goal of education should be, not scores on tests that can be easily gamed or even straight up falsified.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by lenniel

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

There are some classes like that, but not nearly enough. It requires more teachers and social workers to deal with the problem kids, and that costs money that isn't there. Providing schools with more social workers to deal with the trouble kids was one of the main points CTU was fighting for in the CPS strike.

It's also important to note that not just any teacher can take over a class of problem students. You need to have someone with training in severe behavioral problems. These kids are not just a bunch of smart-alecs, they are severely troubled kids.

[udonsoup]

Originally Posted by lenniel

In my professional life, I have 3 choices if I'm unhappy or not performing.
1) Quit and find another job
2) Get fired and find another job
3) Suck it up, do whatever I need to do to meet managements expectations so that I don't have to take option 2.

Why should teaching be different. If the conditions are so poor and the pay is so low, don't be a teacher, or don't be a public school teacher.

Turnover and career switching for teachers is really high.

We had similar schools in Asia where the worst students were lumped together(you apply to HS in many countries). Exactly the same situation as bad CPA schools.....many teachers literally "gave" up.

A better solution would be to convert the poorest performing schools to Military style schools with a strict regimen but that wouldn't go over well with the public.

[nana053]

Originally Posted by lenniel

this is an honest question: Even in the worst schools and under the worst circumstances, what percentage of students does this apply to? Seriously, because i don't know.

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

nclb

[nana053]

Originally Posted by lenniel

This is an honest question: Even in the worst schools and under the worst circumstances, what percentage of students does this apply to? Seriously, because I don't know.

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

Disruptive students cheat others of one day a week » Local News » The Register-Herald, Beckley, West Virginia

One element exacerbating the issue is a reluctance of some administrators to deal with unruly behavior because it gives schools a bad mark in the No Child Left Behind program, AFT President Judy Hale told reporters.

Harvard Education Letter

Jenny Kramer* wanted to teach. She spent six years in training—four at a prestigious college and two in a top-ranked masters program—and landed a job in 1996 at a magnet school in Manhattan. Excited by the school's low student-teacher ratio and full-inclusion policies, she looked forward to playing her own small part in school reform. But a few unruly students turned teaching into a daily trial. When students cursed at her, administrators told Kramer to toughen up. More-experienced teachers reacted to Kramer's frustration with a shrug: What did she expect? In June 1999, she quit teaching altogether. "I've had my fill," she says.

[udonsoup]

This is an honest question: Even in the worst schools and under the worst circumstances, what percentage of students does this apply to? Seriously, because I don't know.

And, with that being said, if there are kids in class that are just a disruption, why can't they all be moved into a class or program where all the other kids have little interest in learning and are only in school because they have to be?

They do in Asia....those schools are 100% hellholes. As one teacher put it "I always see my former students pumping gas at the local station"

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by mattywo85

Apples and oranges but continue

It's actually quite analogous, or I wouldn't have used it.

When patients go to a doctor, some are easy to treat. Others are nearly impossible to treat and will likely die no matter what the doctor does, because the doctor is only one of many variables affecting the health of the patient. Still others are somewhere in the middle. A really good doctor will help more of the patients in the middle than a really bad doctor, and may occasionally even save one of the nearly impossible ones. We don't blame the doctor when a high percentage of the poor prognosis patients die, though, because the doctor can't control every element of a person's health. We also don't blame doctors for the entire health care system being broken.

When students go to school, some are easy to teach. Others are nearly impossible to teach and will likely not learn no matter what the teacher does, because the teacher is only one of many variables affecting the education of the student. Still others are somewhere in the middle. A really good teacher will help more of the students in the middle than a really bad teacher, and my occasionally even save one of the nearly impossible ones. We shouldn't blame the teacher when a high percentage of the poor prognosis students don't learn, though, because the teacher can't control every element of a person's education. We also shouldn't blame teachers for the entire education system being broken.

[nana053]

Originally Posted by udonsoup

A better solution would be to convert the poorest performing schools to Military style schools with a strict regimen but that wouldn't go over well with the public.

Military style schools will not work for most of these kids.

Children with behavioral problems need focused, individualized treatment so as to help them develop the skills and strategies necessary to grow and mature into responsible adults. Following orders might work for a teen who is simply belligerent, but it will not cause any significant improvement in the behavior of a truly emotionally troubled child.

What is needed is smaller classes and teachers who are well-trained at dealing with the problems the kids present.