need info on South Holland, IL (Chicago, Naperville: section 8, spring break, real estate)

[ajolotl]

I have a friend who recently taught in an elementary school in the far southern end of the city. In addition to all of the obvious things, his number one observation was how virtually none of the parents (ie moms) would support his attempts to discipline their kids, even when the kids admitted to doing some outrageous stuff (would get censored if I mentioned some of the things here). They had a "don't mess with my kid" attitude and would storm the principal's office screaming, making excuses, threatening to sue and blaming the teachers. They were not open to reason or the possibility that their child might need discipline. To avoid this situation the principal would typically cave in and overlook all but the worst cases. This created a complete hell on earth for the teachers.

I recall when I was that age. The unwritten rule was that the parents always backed the teacher. We knew this and knew better than to mess around. Imagine what kind of message the opposite attitude sends.

[Humboldt1]

Ajolotl,

With attitudes like that for the parents, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at these schools. Hopefully, with better educated parents, some of these attitudes will go away. That will require people moving in who take care of business at home and don't expect others to raise their kids and then cry when someone tries to discipline their "good" kid.

[suburban_boy]

Do you expect a person with 100k+ not to have a family? A household that makes that kind of money can definately afford 4 kids. Then again, not many families have 4 kids nowadays. The average family have no more than 2 Kids. That's why I'm just going by income. If I was to bring up family size, wealth and debt then that would be a different story. If that's the case, then a lot of people we think are rich really ain't. If a person making $1 million file for bankruptcy are they still a million? Income wise...probably so. A doctor making 250K+ still has to pay a high student loan debt, malpractice insurance, a large house in Naperville, Kenilworth or Olympia Fields, a sports car or two,
gas insurance for everything, utilites, blackberry, credit cards, etc. and I haven't even mentioned the wife and kids yet (wife's shopping addiction, children's boarding school). And if this is a single male doctor then you know already know what they spending their money on. When people make a lot of money they are bound to spend it on something with or with out a family. Not everyone one is frugal. Anyway, if the median household income for a town is 85K and up in Illinois then it's most likely a upper-middle class community.

Getting back to South Holland. What I said eons ago was that South Holland is approaching middle-class status. I didn't say that they were one.

[suburban_boy]

As far as the schools in SH. I think will blame the teachers and administrators. I blame the parents too. However, that's a little more complicated. Anyway, a teacher has a job to do and that's to teach and make sure their students are learning. If they fail then they should get the boot. Teaching is the only profession I know where you can underachieve and still get a raise every year. If I don't do what I am hired to do, I'll get fired. So why is it so hard to fire a bad teacher? Once they get tenured then they become untouchable. It's no different than being a Priest except for the fact that a teacher can't get away with inappropriately touching their students (not trying to offend any catholics. just saying). I don't care where the school is, if the teachers ain't doing their jobs then they should get fired. Therefore, if the test scores are too low then it's time to do some exterminating.

I'm a social worker, who work with foster kids. I've run across horrible parents all the time. That don't mean I should just give up on these kids b/c their parents suck. If I had that attidute I would get fired.

[LIS123]

Originally Posted by suburban_boy

You have to understand something. Not a lot of households bring in 100k a year. In 2005, only 15% of US households made 100k or over, which means that 85% of the population made less. In any case, if your income is in the top 15% of the Entire US Population, it would definately put you in an elite class of households (otherwise known as upper middle class). For African Americans, these households are the creme de la creme.

Also, less than 3% of households make over 200K, which would put these households in the category of Upper Class (plus, there's an extremely larger income range in this category than the under 200K range). Only 1.5% of households make over 250K. You can't say that these households are "upper middle class" because they are cleary within the top 3% of the US Population, thus, making them "Upper Class" (income wise).

To some of us, those labels ('middle class,' 'upper middle class,' 'wealthy,' etc.) mean nothing. You're right that the percentiles are what they are such that X% of households earn more than $ Y/annum.

That said, I think it's understandable for members of a household earning $ 100K-300K to feel as if they are anything but rich. Most people earning in this range will be living in higher cost/tax states and metro areas. With children (especially if you try to assist them with College/grad school), housing expenses, mortgage/rent, car payments, federal state and local taxes plus other fees that go to the Government (auto registration, etc.), insurance (auto, life, health, homeowner/renter, disability, etc.), food, clothing, gas, utilities, and the rest it goes quick.

I'm not saying these people should be pitied but, in many cases, they are far from wealthy. If we define wealthy as meaning someone who can spend frivolously without a second thought, they are anything but wealthy. They wouldn't disagree with that.

[ajolotl]

I totally agree with LIS. At these income levels it can often be more like a separate, professional track of 'middle class'. Better neighborhoods, schools, etc but still pinched in a way that one doesn't associate with upper-middle or upper class.

[suburban_boy]

If the "lower-middle class" is on the lower end of middle-class then the "upper-middle class" is on the higher end of middle-class, but still quintessentially middle-class. Therefore, the upper class is a household that's far removed from the middle class, period. I feel that anyone making over 300K a year, living anywhere in the US, is far enough removed from the middle class to be consider part of the "lower upper class(?)".

I said 300K+ because that's might the lowest amount a person can make to buy a million dollar home with a 30 yr loan (if they play their cards right). No middle-class household (not ever an upper-middle class one) can afford a million dollar home.

[Humboldt1]

Two CPS teachers with 25 years experience who each make $125K per year and 2 kids, for household income of $250K living in Chicago are not upper class. They might be upper middle class, but not upper class.

Upper Class is more like $500K and over annual income for family of 4.

$250K maybe if you are single.

[suburban_boy]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Two CPS teachers with 25 years experience who each make $125K per year and 2 kids, for household income of $250K living in Chicago are not upper class. They might be upper middle class, but not upper class.

Upper Class is more like $500K and over annual income for family of 4.

$250K maybe if you are single.

Don't you mean principles? I wasn't aware that teachers (even with 25 years of experience) can make that much per year. Also, I did say over 300,000K. Lets be honest here!! How many people with six figure incomes you think are gonna move in a regular middle class neighborhood? If they had that kind of money and didn't mind spending it, they would prefer moving to Naperville, Orland Park, Olympia Fields, Flossmoor, Lincoln Park, Evanston, Oak Park, Beverly, Hyde Park, Elmhurst, Schaumburg, Highland Park, Deerfield, Oak Brook, etc. All these areas are considered by many to be upper-middle class to upper class.

[ImaloneJill]

Really? I honestly thought Orland Park was more lower-middle to middle class. To me, upper middle class and beyond are doctors, lawyers, stock brokers, etc. I have experienced Orland Park and many of the more well-kept south/sw burbs (Tinley, Mokena, New Lenox, Frankfort) are trades people, small business owners, nurses, radiology techs, teachers, realtors, etc.