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I get the business analogy, but it's about them getting it somewhere. They're going to get an "incentive" from some municipality to set up shop. To me it's plain ole smart business sense if you know you can get it and shop the best deal. As a city if it's not offered, they're not going to attract the business. You call this "welfare" and "handouts" - I just don't see what choice they have other then your suggestion of condemning, bulldozing, cutting, etc. Isn't that the path Detroit is on? Do you see them in better shape for it? It's a vicious circle of catch-22 as areas get more and more run down they spiral into below ghetto. BTW nice dig on the taxes thing... As I said earlier, I know I don't have enough skin in the game for you down in the cow pastures, but I like to offer my opinion anyway.
I know Scaleybark and I've heard/read about the light rail failures many times. I'm not suggesting that this Eastland project will be a "success" any more then the examples you give... I'm just suggesting that it seems like a reasonable risk that could work out well. Hey, you could convince me the alternatives (or better ways to spend that money) are smarter or better - I'm trying to learn from this.
You're leaning further right and right over the years ani... lol - I think we're all getting ol*** <ahem> "more mature".
CNN did an interesting piece where they went into the poorest areas of some of the poorest states - interviewing regular folks in very poverty stricken areas about who they plan to vote for... The vast majority of them were adamant about voting the GOP line. Even when the interviewer asked them straight out about their 99 weeks of unemployment and food stamps they pretty much all were collecting (admitting to it on camera as something "they deserve"), they insisted on GOP being the right choice for the future. Why? ---- God and a sprinkling of outright racism. I found this to be an interesting view into how all the "gubment welfare" folks are not voting the way you may think (although I admit there's some truth in your statement, just don't think it's as much as many think it is). It's a very magical smoke and mirrors thing going for the GOP. Amazing.
Now, now . . . not fair. You know I am best described as a Libertarian and eschew most of what rightwingers embrace . . . from a woman's right to choose to gay marriage. I believe that there are times we HAVE to step in, for the "public good," to effect change (and Eastland looks like one of those times, to me).
Sometimes, we have to put an incentive on the table in order to secure jobs - it is a trade-off. I always prefer seeing tax revenue being generated, of course . . . that is how we meet the budget.
Ani, while this thread isn't about incentives, I have lived with the consequences of a refusal to do incentives. It's downright ugly. NC learned from the Dell debacle. Incentives in Kings Mountain are tied to committments of many years. It's not a reason for posters to make personally insulting comments as has occurred in this thread.
I think that Charlotte City Council has done the right thing with the mall. In the age of incentives, If a company was interested in the building &/or land, they won't hunt down & negotiate with multiple owners. There is also a need for better production facilities. Whether the mall is the best place for it remains to be seen. There are other locations that might prove better.
In my opinion, Charlotte's city council did 2 things that were very right. They've consolidated the mall properties & made the public aware of the fact that we are losing money & jobs by not having proper production facilities. I posted links to news reports that back this up & posted links that tell about the production facilities near Wilmington.
There are a lot of possibilities. Production facilities might be better in that rural strip of Mecklenburg County between Belmont & Charlotte or in Kings Mountain, to build it from the ground up. Who knows, maybe the mall will become offices & retail.
Totally understand where you are coming from and I am on the page with you. I also agree that the services discussed are needed in this region. Anyone who can't see that is . . . not paying attention!
Something has to be addressed w/ Eastland and the area surrounding the mall itself - and the sooner, the better. I think most of us would agree - it would have been ideal for a private developer to make this all happen w/o the city's involvement but if that isn't possible, the city would be remiss not to consider alternatives.
Now, now . . . not fair. You know I am best described as a Libertarian and eschew most of what rightwingers embrace . . . from a woman's right to choose to gay marriage. I believe that there are times we HAVE to step in, for the "public good," to effect change (and Eastland looks like one of those times, to me).
Sometimes, we have to put an incentive on the table in order to secure jobs - it is a trade-off. I always prefer seeing tax revenue being generated, of course . . . that is how we meet the budget.
not trying to hijack this thread but is Libertarian the new "right wing"... or similar to being a progressive instead of a Liberal? Sorry but there are so many labels I have no idea what is who is what anymore.
I've bumped into a lot of people and I've heard some on the radio who use right wing talking points but 9 out of 10 times when called on it they claim Libertarian.
Keep in mind. At this point, no incentives have been offered or taken for Eastland Mall. What HAS happened is the city has paid off a number of corporates and private individuals with taxpayer money to take ownership for a dead mall at substantially higher than market rate. They currently have no detailed plan for what they will do with it.
Everything else is just an assumption. Meanwhile a substantial property has been removed from the taxrolls, and the vast majority of neighborhood improvement bonds, have now been consumed.
This is about as anti-good economy as it gets.
Do you still feel condemning it and/or demolishing it with a lien attached for the costs would have been the better option? Wouldn't that have taken it off the tax rolls, too? Not sure of the financial logistics with that, but it certainly wouldn't be helping to improve the area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
And what about the company that doesn't get the incentive? What about the startup that wants to start that business? It will never happen because they can't compete with a business where it's risk of failure is being backstopped by the taxpayer. Government incentives, which means government takes from one part of society and hands it to another, cause job loss.
And because taxes are increased, small business, where the vast majority of people are employed can't get off the ground. The tax burden & reporting requirements make much of it a dead end.
I won't argue the logic, but again I struggle with what are the viable options to attempt an improvement of the area? Unless your contention is ultimately to leave it to "natural selection"... which I'm guessing is your overriding economic principle when it comes to business. I mean you have to admit that capitalism as we knew it is pretty much dead in favor of the new world order. The issues at odds here are not exclusive to Charlotte or even the US as a whole.
Ultimately I believe you put too much faith in the private sector as "better" when I see examples every day of lying / cheating / money grubbing... some at unprecedented levels - take LIeBOR most recently as an example. This is the kind of thing that can and will happen without some level of regulation - something that a government can do to protect its people that is not simply re-allocating our money (as you call it).
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
Totally understand where you are coming from and I am on the page with you. I also agree that the services discussed are needed in this region. Anyone who can't see that is . . . not paying attention!
Something has to be addressed w/ Eastland and the area surrounding the mall itself - and the sooner, the better. I think most of us would agree - it would have been ideal for a private developer to make this all happen w/o the city's involvement but if that isn't possible, the city would be remiss not to consider alternatives.
I could not agree more.
Availability of studios & sound stages will spur growth for ad agencies & marketing firms, above & beyond film & TV production. It will also attract various related businesses. In a better economy it would still pay if they had to tear down the mall or drastically modify it. If they had to also acquire & tear down adjacent properties, it's not feasible at this time. At that point, they have to look outside of town. That isn't a problem, though. Holder Constructiion has been building in Kings Mountain for 3 years now & some of the workers are from Charlotte. Many nurses at CMC Main are from Gastonia & Kings Mountain.
It would be nice if someone had done something with the mall without intervention. It didn't happen. I've seen the result of no intervention (Can you say Camden?) They absolutely did the right thing.
not trying to hijack this thread but is Libertarian the new "right wing"... or similar to being a progressive instead of a Liberal? Sorry but there are so many labels I have no idea what is who is what anymore.
I've bumped into a lot of people and I've heard some on the radio who use right wing talking points but 9 out of 10 times when called on it they claim Libertarian.
Just asking...
I seriously doubt you are going to see far right conservatives applauding a Libertarian platform, lol. Far right conservatives want government to act as moral arbiter. Far left liberals want government to act as Nanny.
Without getting into libertarianism a la Chomsky . . . the popularly accepted "definition" most people embrace today is - less federal government/regs, local government w/o dependency on federal $$$ (and regs), tax/IRS reform, and philosophically - fiscal conservativism and social liberalism. I don't think you are going to get many people on the far left or right to agree to that philosophy.
For most of us, no one party "stands for everything" we believe or would advocate - so labels have become somewhat meaningless.
Last edited by brokensky; 07-25-2012 at 01:31 PM..
Do you still feel condemning it and/or demolishing it with a lien attached for the costs would have been the better option? Wouldn't that have taken it off the tax rolls, too? Not sure of the financial logistics with that, but it certainly wouldn't be helping to improve the area.
I disagree with nature of the question because I don't agree that the premise that the city needed to do anything with it. This was private property apparently maintained in a completely legal manner by its owners so it's no business of the city. However if the city could make the case the mall was somehow preventing economic development in East Charlotte, which has not been proved, then they don't need to purchase it. They can use the existing laws to force the owners to correct the legal issues else the powers of condemnation can be used. I will point out the city never made this case.
Government can't bring true economic recovery to an area without first addressing the issues that caused the decline in the first place. I said earlier that East Charlotte's decline occurred during one of the largest economic expansions in the city's history. It's folly to believe the city buying a mall and handing it over is going to make any difference at all. I will also add that I reject this premise as well, that is, government can bring economic recovery, but I answered this question to point out the nonsense being spewed out around this issue.
I've said before the goal of government isn't to solve problems. It's ultimate goal is to create dependence and hence expand its own power. In some places this has gone so far it's forcing cities into bankruptcy because they can no longer tax the people enough to cover their promises. It will come here too, and this sort of decision will hasten it. Before the laughter starts, remember just 5 years ago, they said that Charlotte was recession proof too.
I seriously doubt you are going to see far right conservatives applauding a Libertarian platform, lol. Far right conservatives want government to act as moral arbiter. Far left liberals want government to act as Nanny.
If you objectively look at any significant problem facing this country today, and don't get caught up in labels and political party dogma, it's not difficult to see how these problems were enabled in the first place.
If the city of Charlotte decides that it will now call the shots of economic development in East Charlotte, the end result is that it will drive out the remaining businesses that are not relying on the public dole and the city government to assume the risk of doing business.
It will also continue to drive many wedges in this city as highlighted by the effort by the Ballentyne area to secede Charlotte and form its own town. The people who are actually working and paying taxes to cover this sort of nonsense are getting sick of it and the more of this goes on, the stronger these calls get. Is this good for Charlotte? No. Eventually they will gain a sympathetic ear in Raleigh which can pass any law that it likes to change this.
Yo......No need to change a think over there..Every thing is every thing and beeeenussss is good.
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) They absolutely did the right thing.
