Craker Plant in Institute still on track (Charleston, Morgantown: crimes, house)

[Silkdashocker]

Mensa, here is a list of the by-products of the cracking process they use: Ethylene Oxide (EO)
Ethylene Glycol (EG)
Polyethylene (PE)
Acetic Acid (AA)
Ethylene

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by Silkdashocker

Mensa, here is a list of the by-products of the cracking process they use: Ethylene Oxide (EO)
Ethylene Glycol (EG)
Polyethylene (PE)
Acetic Acid (AA)
Ethylene

I didn't know that. Ethylene Glycol is used to make antifreeze. Prestone antifreeze was developed at the South Charleston plant, and Glycol was used at the DuPont plant too. DuPont also used Acetic Acid.

I don't know if those other chemicals are used in the Kanawha Valley plants.

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by Silkdashocker

RVAtoNC those pictures are not necessary especially in the Charleston forum.

cry havoc, I am basically going to disregard anything you have to say because you have to resort to personal attacks to try to get someone's attention.

What personal attacks. I am right. Pictures of Morgantown are irrelevant and lets face it this is common. You have been ignoring what I have been saying since my first post here because you dont like the facts I have presented.

[Silkdashocker]

You called me uneducated in your last post! You don't even know me or what kind of certificates I hold! How is that not a personal attack?

I also freshly remember you calling ChrisCross stupid.

Both are personal attacks and trolling. Forum violations.

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

That is why the chemical industry has existed in the Kanawha Valley since the 1920's. A good work force helps, but a navigable river is a must, both for the barge traffic and the water to be used in the plants. Proximity to the coal fields is a big plus, both for the raw materials and for the low cost of electricity. In addition, I notice as I drive around the valley that all of the chemical plants have lots of open land inside their fences, so that would imply that there is infrastructure to support additional processing facilities (since obsolete chemical processing units once occupied that land). As far as access to the gas fields is concerned (if that is even a concern at all), Carbide has pipelines that run all the way from the Kanawha Valley plants to the former plant location in Sistersville. I would assume that some kind of negotiation for the pipeline use could be worked out. With a new facility being able to tap existing facilities to get steam, river water, compressed air, nitrogen, and electricity, an existing chemical plant would seem to be an ideal location for a cracker. One thing we don't know about is the end use of the products of the cracker. If it is to be in the form of specialty gases, those facilities already exist at or next to the Institute plant.

Charleston is a good place for a chemical plant, but a Cracker it isnt.

Charleston is not going to be part of the supply or manufacturing side of the shale boom. It could get some service elements like a call center, or a regional sales office. Dont worry though the tax revenue from the North will ensure Charleston benefits.

[elewis7]

I honestly don't understand some of you guys, and I never will. Attacking other cities in WV? Attacking other people? C'mon guys, that's not very becoming of anyone. I said that my last post would be my final in this thread, but I just want to redirect people who may come across this thread to refer to that post for an actual detailed analysis of the project, sans attacks.

Oh, and as part of my senior design project - in chemical engineering - we had to design a cracker from the ground up. That not only includes the entire plant and its operations, both scientifically and economically, but also researching the preliminary information like environmental, legislative, financial, and a detailed site selection. We studied sites everywhere in WV and you know what we decided on? The Kanawha Valley, with the NP as a close second. And before you say "Oh, well that's just some college kid's opinion," all of our professors agreed. That project also got us in dialogue with the Aither people on a number of occasions, which was pretty cool.

[NOVAmtneer82]

Originally Posted by elewis7

I honestly don't understand some of you guys, and I never will. Attacking other cities in WV? Attacking other people? C'mon guys, that's not very becoming of anyone. I said that my last post would be my final in this thread, but I just want to redirect people who may come across this thread to refer to that post for an actual detailed analysis of the project, sans attacks.

Oh, and as part of my senior design project - in chemical engineering - we had to design a cracker from the ground up. That not only includes the entire plant and its operations, both scientifically and economically, but also researching the preliminary information like environmental, legislative, financial, and a detailed site selection. We studied sites everywhere in WV and you know what we decided on? The Kanawha Valley, with the NP as a close second. And before you say "Oh, well that's just some college kid's opinion," all of our professors agreed. That project also got us in dialogue with the Aither people on a number of occasions, which was pretty cool.

Well elewis I am sure those professors and the Aither people were all 'anti-Morgantown'..

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by elewis7

I honestly don't understand some of you guys, and I never will. Attacking other cities in WV? Attacking other people? C'mon guys, that's not very becoming of anyone. I said that my last post would be my final in this thread, but I just want to redirect people who may come across this thread to refer to that post for an actual detailed analysis of the project, sans attacks.

Oh, and as part of my senior design project - in chemical engineering - we had to design a cracker from the ground up. That not only includes the entire plant and its operations, both scientifically and economically, but also researching the preliminary information like environmental, legislative, financial, and a detailed site selection. We studied sites everywhere in WV and you know what we decided on? The Kanawha Valley, with the NP as a close second. And before you say "Oh, well that's just some college kid's opinion," all of our professors agreed. That project also got us in dialogue with the Aither people on a number of occasions, which was pretty cool.

That is some great anecdotal evidence Elewis, , and I have to agree with it. Given the amount of subsidies and corporate welfare you get building in Charleston I too would build a Cracker there. Why build in the NP when it is all expenses paid by the state in Southern WV? Hell, I would open a uranium mine in Charleston too, despite the fact that there is no uranium there, if the state would pay for it.

In all seriousness I have been saying this the whole time. The economic conditions are best in Charleston, because Charleston gives any company that opens a plant there a huge handout.

I also find it disgusting all the regionalism in this forum. For long time I have tried to create a sense of WV unity and pride, but a few posters from the southern region of this state constantly destroy it. I will not call out names, but we all know who they are. We need to move past the regional attitude of, "we must force the state to only develop here to ensure only we prosper," to one where ALL of WV can prosper.

Given subsidies to scams that will costs the taxpayers hundreds of millions is not good for the state, and it is not good for Charleston.

[Silkdashocker]

Let's just take a quick look back at some of the comments said in this conversation to this point:

Originally Posted by cry_havoc
Elewis I am going to have to disagree with you.

The industry is the northern part of the state, and the big markets are in the Northeast. Building a plant away from both doesnt make any sense. The unrelated industry in Charleston is irrelevent to a cracker plant. They could easily build this plant anywhere in WV and the skills and infrastructure would be there. Wheeling is an industrial town too, and would make much more sense. The location of the HQ is also irrelevant. With the advent of the telephone, and other electronic communications the HQ does not need to be close to a factory. Perhaps this would have been true in the 19th century, but not since 1900. Finally the market is based on supply and demand. You want the cracker to be where the demand is, and it is not Charleston. the Cracker in PA wont meet all of the demand. You are just adding to transportation cost by putting the cracker in the middle of nowhere, away from the Shale, and away from the markets.

There is NO rational behind this move. The only thing I can think of is Charleston giving itself another handout. Charleston is infamous for this, and let's face it this move makes no sense. Charleston is just finding more ways to steal and redistribute wealth from Northern WV

cry_havoc has jumped into this thread and decided he knows what makes sense. Never mind that some business owners will invest several hundred million dollars. cry_havoc says it doesn't make sense. He offers no proof, but if he says it ...

He also says the infrastructure already exists in anywhere in WV along with the skills, but offers no evidence that such exists. He claims there is no rationale, but offers nothing to support that ideas, so he immediately jumps into his tried and true "corruption" theme. (Note that there is never any evidence to support that either.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc It is called incentives Chris. They are basically handouts to companies. WV generally only gives them to build in Charleston.

Although these tax incentives are available anywhere there is a business "zone", cry_havoc has decided that they only apply to the Charleston area.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc
Charleston trying to force shale industry within it when none would develop naturally is already hurting the whole state. The state pushed hard for a much bigger cracker and gave HUGE incentives but the company chose to build in an area in PA where this is actual shale instead of Charleston which is far from the actual actions and markets. Had they proposed the plant in Wheeling it would have been built here and the state as a whole would be better off.

There is plenty of locations in the actual Shale area where they could build this plant at the same price and have a trained workforce. The only reason the company is building in Charleston is because the state government is subsidizing the plant with taxpayer money. This is not a business decision Chris, but a bribe from the state. Charleston wants to force itself to become part of the shale boom where ordinarily it would not be. THis is going to fail Chris and the shale from northern WV is going to go to PA because it is more practical. Once again Charleston has hurt the whole state to give itself a short term boost.

Keeping in mind the incentive would work in Fairmont or Wheeling as well as Charleston, a person has to wonder why cry_havoc says the state is subsidizing the plant when the state lays out no cash at all. If an individual, instead of the government, was accused of offering a bribe, a charge of libel could to made.Proof in court would be needed to overcome the charge. Is there any proof here? Has anyone in Charleston hurt the state by offering a tax incentive for anyone building a cracker anywhere in the state?

Originally Posted by cry_havoc

Chris, they arent even building this plant to last. They just want state subsidies and a tax writeoff when they close the plant in a few years. This will be a boon to PA which bases its decisions off practicality and not handouts to private businesses.

Now, we have miraculously learned that this plant isn't being built to last (note the absence of proof), along with a prediction that the plant will close in a few years (crystal ball?).

Originally Posted by cry_havoc Yes, because there are no closer alternatives and the infrastructure doesnt exist. Once there is a closer plant they wont be sent so far. Same issue with Charleston. All the gas from Northern WV will go to PA. It will only go to Charleston if there is not enough capacity for the closer PA plant. So the plant in Charleston might work assuming that is the case until another plant is built closer in Northern WV, PA, or Ohio. Then the Charleston plant will be defeated by the market. The location makes NO business sense.

The primary market for natural gas is not Kanawha county and the Ohio river valley. It isnt even in the top 10 for the region. Charleston is in the middle of a small isolated area. It is a very small market. Nor is charleston close to any attractive markets in the south. Again the move makes NO sense.

Charleston, which controls WV politics, is just trying to force the industry to be located in the Charleston area. It is making itself an unnessecary middleman. This type of plan already cost the state a much bigger plant.

First he says the infrastructure doesn't exist, without saying what infrastructure that is. Then he says the plant will be defeated by the market, so it must have been built in the first place. Then it makes no sense, but only one brain has been able to figure it out.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc Yes, it is small. 600,000 is not many people, and when you consider how HUGE this metro area is it makes it seem even smaller. There are smaller land areas with millions of people. It is small and not near any real metro area. It is the biggest metro area solely in the state but Martinsburg and Morgantown have larger metro areas expanding out of the state, and it is irrelevent. It is like being the tallest midget in a midget contest. The tallest midget is still a midget at the end of the day.

Silk it is nothing against Charleston, it is like how people call the Federal government Washington. It comes with the territory. There is a corrupt and incompotent state government that gets power through a powerful political machine, located in Charleston that gets its support mainly from Kanawa county and the surrounding area because they give the people in these areas handouts.

Some of the stuff in this forum is embarrassing. The support for a cracker facility in the middle of nowhere, far away from the actual industry, just because it will give their town a short term economic boost at the expense of a long lose for the whole state. It shames me that people throw common sense out the door to wage their regional vendettas and beg for stupid handouts from the state.

Whether the state government is corrupt is actually irrelevant since no evidence has been offered, and the law has none in it. What's actually shameful is to accuse the state government of corruption and to express such hate for a place as to criticize it in every conversation, even when none is warranted.

And i like how he says that it's nothing against Charleston, when he previously stated that it's not just Charleston, but it's also the people of Kanawha County and the surrounding areas.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc The issue is the taxpayer subsidies they are receiving. If they want to waste their money in a plant that will go out of business in a few years I dont care. I care when all of WV has to subsidize a plant this company is using as a tax writeoff to take advantage of subsidies, that which the state is supporting as a handout to Charleston.

I am not the only person commenting on how stupid this is. Several posters have mentioned how retarded this is.

There is not a hint anywhere that any plant built anywhere will go out of business in a few years. There is also nothing to support the idea that there is any handout to Charleston. While there have been 2-3 posters think there are better ideas, there are a lot more posters taking a more practical approach.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc These tax incentives were written up for a plant in Charleston. Without building in Charleston or close to it they wont exist. After Charleston gets its handout they might let other places get the same subsidies , but if CHarleston doesnt get its handout than no subidies for anyone.

Cracker tax break could cost locality $300 million* - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports -

It is $300 million we are giving away as a handout to private business and Charleston. $300 million that all of WV is paying for that is not going to healthcare, educuation, infrastructure, and there is a word for this and it is called CORRUPTION.

Like I said I dont mind a private company making poor business decisions when only their money is involved. However, all of WV is paying for this. THis will even hurt Charleston. It will ensure the industry developes in PA and wont develope in WV. In the long run it will really hurt Charleston, more than short term construction jobs and running an unused plant for a year or two. $300 million is a lot to shoot ourselves in the foot.

There is nothing in the legislation that mentions Charleston or Kanawha County. There is nothing in the bill that would indicate that the tax incentives won't allow the plant to be built if it is not in Charleston. These statements are not supported by facts.

Any tax incentives will go to a business building a Cracker, not to Charleston. The law was well publicized and public hearings were held. There is nothing in it to make people suspect corruption.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc They passed this law to get a place in CHARLESTON. If it is built anywhere it disappears. If Charleston could move the steel zone to Charleston they could, but it is too far from the industry, just like this CRACKER plant.

The reading public is still waiting to find out where it says this plant has to be in Charleston. In fact, this law was passed to originally entice a large cracker plant to the Northern Panhandle.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc Yes, they want the SAME tax breaks. In fact the plant is smaller and will hire FAR less people but they get same breaks. Stupid chris. This company just wants taxpayer money and a writeoff.

Chris, you need to chill out. You obviously dont know what you are talking about, or do know this is BS but are supporting this blindly out of loyalty to CHarleston. Several people have mentioned why this move makes no sense and how it is being done for government subisides.

I realize you want this to work Chris. That doesnt change the fact the state is paying millions to subisidize a plant that is going to fail because it makes no business sense. I would support this plant if it was public, but I will not support CORRUPTION.

Im sorry people, but YOU are wrong, and wishful thinking wont change the reality of this scam run by this company and the state government.

I don't know why somebody would call Chris stupid. A couple of people have SAID it makes no sense, but nobody has yet shown any reason that readers should believe them.

Someone must have a crystal ball if they know in advance that a business will fail. Readers are still waiting for coverage of the Corruption trial.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc I dont hate CHarleston. I hate how the politicos in CHarleston steal from the rest of the state to create corporate welfare in Charleston. This is just another example of the state picking up the expenses of a private business, while letting the profits flow to a few rich owners. The worst part is this plant is doomed to fail.

Now you are ignoring all the posters who commented on the corruption and the stupidity of this, and want to focus solely on me. That is fine, but it doesnt change the facts. I realize you desperatetly want to convince yourselfs this is legit, but like you said repeating the untrue fact this is not corrupt or a good decision wont make it true, despite how many times you repeat it.

Like I said I would support this if the state was not picking up the tab. Hell I would support it if Kanawha county picked up the tab. However, I will not support corporate welfare when the state picks up the tab and there is no benefit to the state. In fact this will hurt the state by ensuring the industry goes to PA. Charleston's corruption already cost the state a larger cracker plant, and now its corruption will cost WV a big industry. Too bad Charleston is too shortsighted and greedy to see how they are only hurting themselves.

We are all waiting too see how a poiltician stealing relates to a Cracker plant being built 20 miles outside of Charleston. There are no "all the posters who commented on corruption."

We are also curious how you know the plant is doomed to fail.

there is only poster that keeps talking about corruption in this thread.

There is no such thing as an untrue fact.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc I know the ego of the people in this area, Charleston-Huntingon, tells them it is a HUGE metropolis, but in reality they are a very small fish in a very big pond.

We are right on so many levels. EVERYONE knows this is corruption except for 3-4 posters on this board who are city boosters with no objectivity. Like I said I dont oppose this plant, I oppose the whole state supporting a plant that is a handout that is doomed to fail. Nobody is going to go out of there to go to a Cracker in the middle of nowhere far from the shale, when there are ones closer to both the shale and the markets.

Yes, I am sure the cracker plant is taking Government grant money, but this just strengthens my point. This is not free market, nor is it socialism. It is a bastard hybrid where the government and the people of WV cover the expenses while the profits go to a few people. The owners pay nothing since they are subisidzied make a little money, and when it fails get a tax writeoff. Who bears the cost? The people of WV.

You keep talking about this so-called corruption. With a little help occasionally from another poster or two, perhaps, but it is far and away your claim alone, and you have yet to show why anybody should believe you.

A tax incentive is not the same thing as a government grant. Where did the grant originate?

Can you please show us where the owner of the plant will be paying nothing? I thought several hundred million were mentioned.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc This has nothing to do with Morgantown. People in this forum need to stop making every issue Morgantown vs Charleston.

THe issue is how the state is subsidizing corporate welfare and welfare in Charleston for bad enterprises.

According to you we all have a big ego.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc First off we are not ganging up on southern WV posters, they are ganging up on us for daring to state a truth they dont like. Nor or we the only posters who find this plant stupid. EVERYONE that is objective knows this plant is stupid. The reason it is stupid is because Charleston is far from the shale, and in the middle of nowhere.

I never said the plant has to be in a remote area. It has to be in a smart area. Near the shale, and near the markets. It can be in Huntington or in the middle of a farm, as long as it is in a strategic location to take advantage of the market, which Charleston isnt.

I realize you people dont like to hear an unpopular truth. You would rather bury your heads in ignorance and pretend everything is ok, but this is not healthy.

What this basically comes down to is that YOU think the idea is stupid, and anybody that disagrees must be stupid too, and can't possibly be objective because they don't agree with you.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc It has already been shown they want the same tax breaks. Another poster and myself discussed this earlier. The taxbreaks and subisidies are most likely 100% or more of the cost of the plant. Like I said the state is picking up the bill, and by state I mean the people of WV. The profits wont go to them though. The worst part is the stupid location of this cracker will ensure it will quickly fail and the company will get a nice tax writeoff. So you see Chris a great scam they got going. They dont pay for anything, get some small profit, and a big tax writeoff. Likewise Charleston is happy since they get a short term construction project and a year or two of state funded corporate welfare to support it. The policitians are happy because they get their kickbacks. Everyone wins except WV and its peop;e.

Chris, I love Charleston and want it to develope, but kleptocracy, corruption, and corporate welfare is not progress. This type of thing is the reason your city has greatly declined and continuing to embrace these things will ensure the decline continues. I am fighting for the progress of Charleston. I realize so are you, but you have been manipulated by liars and thieves who have gotten you to betray your city while you think you are helping it. You know I dont support corruption Chris, regardless of where it is even Morgantown, so stop making this a Morgantown vs Charleston issue.

I would be happy a WV company was building a plant in WV if the state government and taxpayer money was not involved. As it is a WV company is NOT spending money in WV, the taxpayers are, and the benefits are going to go to a few people and their offshore back accounts.

Where did you get the idea that the tax incentives (there are no subsidies) would equal the cost of the plant? Most of us would like to know in advance if a business would succeed. If the location is as stupid as you say it is, the owner will probably catch on before it is built. When are the politicians going to stand trial for the kickbacks that only you seem to know about?

I thought Chris lived in Clendenin. Is it as corrupt as all the other places in WV? Since this is simply a tax incentive, how did you come to the conclusion that taxpayers are spending money?

Originally Posted by cry_havoc I will always be a WVian and just because I live 30 miles from the border doesnt mean I should stop caring about corruption and incompotence within WV. Maybe you dont have family, friends, or a love for all people of WV, but I do. So yes WE the people of WV demand an end to this travesty.

Chris everyone knows this is a scam. Even my friends from Charleston agree and are pissed. I have seen 3-4 or people who are either naive and ignorant not knowing it is a scam, or know it is a scam but still support it for the welfare, and all of them are posters in the Charleston forum of CD. This is not some conspiracy but a widely accepted fact.

Here are the facts Chris. Shell was willing to build a plant in WV, but the state would only give it subisides if it bult one in Charleston. Despite very generous tax breaks and subidies Shell realized building in Charlesotn made NO business sense and would hurt their bottom line. Shell makes money from doing actually business and not robbing taxpayers.

So this dishonest company comes along and wants the SAME subisides for a MUCH SMALLER cracker. The benefits it receives from the state government are greater than the cost. Imagine if you wanted to open a resturant but knew it would fail you wouldnt open. But what if the state paid for all the expenses, and let you keep all the profits before it failed, and then let you write it off once it failed? You would then open it and that is what is going on. In return the politicos get kickbacks and boost fromt he political machine. This is called C-O-R-R-U-P-T-I-O-N Chris. It is obvious to everyone in WV, except a few deluded posters in this forum. Only idiot couldnt see the obvious.

Chris, this type of corruption and corporate welfare is NOT helping Charleston. Charleston has done this for over a century and it has only caused poverty and decline, not just in Charleston, but the whole state. I realize the city is currently reliant on this type of corruption to stay afloat, but unlike you I have FAITH in Charleston. I feel if Charleston started to try and actually attract business without corruption, state welfare, and forcing businesses to locate there it would thrive.

I realize you resent the progress NCWV has made, but this corruption occurring in Charleston right now is not related to NCWV or Morgantown. You are the one bringing Morgantown into this conversation, despite the fact that Morgantown is not in anyway relevant to this scam. Once again you make yourself a SHILL for the state government, and resort to trying to change the topic to distract people into regional battles to try and make them forgot about the crime Charleston is committing.

Chris you cannot divide the people of WV. They are aware of the corruption, and the people of Northern and Southern WV are uniting against this corruption, including the people of Morgantown and Charleston. No longer can you blame all your problems on Morgantown, like the Nazis did with the Jews, the people of WV know better. Chris I invite you to stop being a puppet for the politicos in Charleston and to join the people of WV in building a better state. I know deep in your heart you want to, so join the good guys.

If this was a widely accepted fact, it would be easy to verify, but none has been offered. That makes reasonable people wonder what the motive is behind such claims.

Shell was offered tax incentives, not subsidies.

Where is the investigation that shows the benefits offered from the state equal or outweigh the costs of the plant?

Readers are still waiting to read about those kickbacks. Meanwhile, Chris and most of the forum readers have been called idiots for disagreeing with you.

Now you claim Charleston survives based on corruption, but have nothing to offer about how that happens?

cry_havoc has mentioned Morgantown more than any other poster in this thread. Outrageously, Nazis and Jews have been brought into the forum. That's really shameful.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc This is NOT an investment. It is a welfare project paid for by the state. If they were actually investing in a CRACKER plant and were paying the bills, instead of the taxpayers, they would not be building a cracker plant in Charleston. They arent going to admit they are running a scam, nor are the politicians, in an interview. So Mensa we know why you are ignorant. You believe everything you hear, so you probably read some newspaper they owned where they praised this project, and you naively believed it.

It doesnt matter where they build it as long as the state pays for it. They could build it on the moon, and it would make as much business sense as Charleston, and they would still reap the benefits from the taxpayers footing the bill.

Once again, you claim the state is spending money when only tax incentives have been offered. Then you have made a personal attack again to a third poster. Since the state is not spending case, the state isn't paying for it.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc It has already been explained, several times, why it doesnt make any business sense. Reread the thread if you missed the 20 or so detailed explanations.

You are right though the government subsidies will save them hundreds of millions of dollars. Corporate welfare is the only advantage Charleston has.

Silk I know you are not that educated, but your fallacy of comparing 2 different things you know little about is just stupid. You should really know better.

I do agree we need to do something about trolls in this forum. It was proved a long time ago by several different posters on how this is just a scam and doesnt make any business sense, but a few posters are now just trolling by pretending to be in denial and repeating refuted arguments, or perhaps they are not trolling and are just too brainwashed and not smart enough to understand. Im all for suggestions on how to deal with them.

Saying it doesn't make sense over and over does not work. Your opinion is not becoming fact by way of repetition. All you have offered is opinion.

Then you decided to make another personal attack on me, without knowing my level of education.

BTW, nothing about this being a scam as been proved. Your saying it is does not constitute proof.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc It has 3 highways to nowhere, and is still in the little of nowhere. There are plenty of cities in much better locations that make business sense. Like I said this has already been explained. There is one factor involved and that is a scam run by this company and the state, which has been explained.

To the poster posting Morgantown photos. I could easily do the same and post bad photos of Charleston, and with the amount of population loss it has experienced it would be easy to do. However, this is irrelevant, off topic, and creates a bad atmosphere. However, this does prove my point that posters on this board are obsessed with Morgantown, resort to Morgantown bashing, and try to change the subject to Charleston vs Morgantown whenever facts refute their arguments in the hopes it will change the subject and make people forget the truth about Charleston corruption. We dont need to resort to such behavior, and you would never see the Morgantown users sinking so low in our forum. Keep it classy CHarleston!

You say it has been explained, but you have never offered even a little evidence or information to support your claims. Your comments about Morgantown are not worthy of a comment, so none is offered.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc What personal attacks. I am right. Pictures of Morgantown are irrelevant and lets face it this is common. You have been ignoring what I have been saying since my first post here because you dont like the facts I have presented.

There are at least three personal attacks highlighted in the quoted sections above.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc Charleston is a good place for a chemical plant, but a Cracker it isnt.

Charleston is not going to be part of the supply or manufacturing side of the shale boom. It could get some service elements like a call center, or a regional sales office. Dont worry though the tax revenue from the North will ensure Charleston benefits.

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by Silkdashocker

Let's just take a quick look back at some of the comments said in this conversation to this point:



cry_havoc has jumped into this thread and decided he knows what makes sense. Never mind that some business owners will invest several hundred million dollars. cry_havoc says it doesn't make sense. He offers no proof, but if he says it ...

He also says the infrastructure already exists in anywhere in WV along with the skills, but offers no evidence that such exists. He claims there is no rationale, but offers nothing to support that ideas, so he immediately jumps into his tried and true "corruption" theme. (Note that there is never any evidence to support that either.




Although these tax incentives are available anywhere there is a business "zone", cry_havoc has decided that they only apply to the Charleston area.



Keeping in mind the incentive would work in Fairmont or Wheeling as well as Charleston, a person has to wonder why cry_havoc says the state is subsidizing the plant when the state lays out no cash at all. If an individual, instead of the government, was accused of offering a bribe, a charge of libel could to made.Proof in court would be needed to overcome the charge. Is there any proof here? Has anyone in Charleston hurt the state by offering a tax incentive for anyone building a cracker anywhere in the state?




Now, we have miraculously learned that this plant isn't being built to last (note the absence of proof), along with a prediction that the plant will close in a few years (crystal ball?).



First he says the infrastructure doesn't exist, without saying what infrastructure that is. Then he says the plant will be defeated by the market, so it must have been built in the first place. Then it makes no sense, but only one brain has been able to figure it out.




Whether the state government is corrupt is actually irrelevant since no evidence has been offered, and the law has none in it. What's actually shameful is to accuse the state government of corruption and to express such hate for a place as to criticize it in every conversation, even when none is warranted.

And i like how he says that it's nothing against Charleston, when he previously stated that it's not just Charleston, but it's also the people of Kanawha County and the surrounding areas.







There is not a hint anywhere that any plant built anywhere will go out of business in a few years. There is also nothing to support the idea that there is any handout to Charleston. While there have been 2-3 posters think there are better ideas, there are a lot more posters taking a more practical approach.





There is nothing in the legislation that mentions Charleston or Kanawha County. There is nothing in the bill that would indicate that the tax incentives won't allow the plant to be built if it is not in Charleston. These statements are not supported by facts.

Any tax incentives will go to a business building a Cracker, not to Charleston. The law was well publicized and public hearings were held. There is nothing in it to make people suspect corruption.




The reading public is still waiting to find out where it says this plant has to be in Charleston. In fact, this law was passed to originally entice a large cracker plant to the Northern Panhandle.



I don't know why somebody would call Chris stupid. A couple of people have SAID it makes no sense, but nobody has yet shown any reason that readers should believe them.

Someone must have a crystal ball if they know in advance that a business will fail. Readers are still waiting for coverage of the Corruption trial.




We are all waiting too see how a poiltician stealing relates to a Cracker plant being built 20 miles outside of Charleston. There are no "all the posters who commented on corruption."

We are also curious how you know the plant is doomed to fail.

there is only poster that keeps talking about corruption in this thread.

There is no such thing as an untrue fact.





You keep talking about this so-called corruption. With a little help occasionally from another poster or two, perhaps, but it is far and away your claim alone, and you have yet to show why anybody should believe you.

A tax incentive is not the same thing as a government grant. Where did the grant originate?

Can you please show us where the owner of the plant will be paying nothing? I thought several hundred million were mentioned.



According to you we all have a big ego.



What this basically comes down to is that YOU think the idea is stupid, and anybody that disagrees must be stupid too, and can't possibly be objective because they don't agree with you.



Where did you get the idea that the tax incentives (there are no subsidies) would equal the cost of the plant? Most of us would like to know in advance if a business would succeed. If the location is as stupid as you say it is, the owner will probably catch on before it is built. When are the politicians going to stand trial for the kickbacks that only you seem to know about?

I thought Chris lived in Clendenin. Is it as corrupt as all the other places in WV? Since this is simply a tax incentive, how did you come to the conclusion that taxpayers are spending money?




If this was a widely accepted fact, it would be easy to verify, but none has been offered. That makes reasonable people wonder what the motive is behind such claims.

Shell was offered tax incentives, not subsidies.

Where is the investigation that shows the benefits offered from the state equal or outweigh the costs of the plant?

Readers are still waiting to read about those kickbacks. Meanwhile, Chris and most of the forum readers have been called idiots for disagreeing with you.

Now you claim Charleston survives based on corruption, but have nothing to offer about how that happens?

cry_havoc has mentioned Morgantown more than any other poster in this thread. Outrageously, Nazis and Jews have been brought into the forum. That's really shameful.




Once again, you claim the state is spending money when only tax incentives have been offered. Then you have made a personal attack again to a third poster. Since the state is not spending case, the state isn't paying for it.




Saying it doesn't make sense over and over does not work. Your opinion is not becoming fact by way of repetition. All you have offered is opinion.

Then you decided to make another personal attack on me, without knowing my level of education.

BTW, nothing about this being a scam as been proved. Your saying it is does not constitute proof.



You say it has been explained, but you have never offered even a little evidence or information to support your claims. Your comments about Morgantown are not worthy of a comment, so none is offered.



There are at least three personal attacks highlighted in the quoted sections above.

Wow, you sure took a long time to write a personal attack. I am flattered really, but that doesnt change the facts that this thread has proved my point time and time again. Not just me, but other posters too.

The company is only going to build the plant if they get the same subsidies a much bigger plant was going to get, and the only way they are getting those subsidies is by building on or near Charleston.

I have been in this situation before, where a point has been proven and someone refuses to quit. For instance I could argue the earth is round while you argue it is flat. I could show you a globe, show you info, get a geographer to talk with you, and even take you to space and show you the earth. After all this evidence you steel claim it is flat. What can I do?

At this point you are either trolling me, the most likely situation, or incapable of understanding the obvious. Im going with the former.