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Are they somehow higher on the animal value scale that pigs or horses? You could argue that cows aren't really pets. But horses are pets. Some pigs are pets. No one seems to have a problem with horses living outside in the barn. Or cows and chickens living outdoors.
I don't think it's wrong to keep a happy indoor cat, indoors. But the suggestion that allowing an ANIMAL to be outdoors is cruel is just laughable.
Should dogs be outside? If you live out in the country and the weather is decent, I have no problem with dogs being allowed to roam around the property. I don't think any animal should be chained up. But dogs aren't unhappy spending time outdoors.
It amazes me that so many people insist on treating their animals like people. What folks fail to understand is that it's not good for the animal.
This thread isn't about what is best of the cats. This about meeting the emotional needs of the owners. Newsflash...Your cat does not love you. It's an animal. He stays because you feed him and clean up after him. When he rubs against you, he isn't showing you affection. He's marking you the same way he does a tree or the couch.
Wow, you really know nothing about cats do you.
Cats form deep emotional love bonds with both people and other animals. If you've ever seen a cat or dog grieve over the loss of another animal or a human, you would understand that.
And yeah, dogs that are forced to live their lives outdoors away from their people are usually pretty miserable. Dogs are pack animals and need socialization. Dogs and cats need their humans just as much we need them.
it's all what you put into it. If you ignore your cat, and leave him outside and don't bond with him, sure he is going to be stand offish and unaffectionate with you.
If you take the time and trouble to interact with him, he will love you and his personality and emotional depths will be developed to a level you obviously cannot comprehend. How sad, you just don't know what you are missing.
see i agree here with magnolia on some points...
a horse for example...they are pets...why arnt they important enough to be an 'indoor pet' or a pig...i had a pet pig growing up, he was 100% a PET, he was a mini pig and a runt at that, at every risk from being stole, poisend or attacked by a larger predator....but its ok to keep him outside...because hes a pig...right? what makes him less on the pet importance chain than a cat?
if all cats shoudl stay indoors then ALL animals should stay indoors because to many people a horse or a pig or a chicken is of equal pet value as a cat or a dog...so should they be brought inside?
but i 100% disagree that animals dont love their people...ive worked with many, ive been involved in zoology, wildlife rehab, shelters and vets offices and farms since i was a very very small child...
animals do form loving bonds with their family, plain and simple ALL animals, be it a dog or cat or a horse or pig...
or like in this case..
Welcome to Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/foxylarouge#!/video/video.php?v=430598599645 - broken link)
a lion!!! (and thats not a 1 off case, i was personally involved in the hand rearing of a grey wolf whos mother had been shot on a hunting trip...once he was mature he joined a pack in a local sanctuary and i didnt see him for 5 years...when i returned to see how he had been doing i was greeted with a wagging tail lip licking ears back piddling absolutly extatic almost 6 year old wolf who not only remembered me but was displaying wolfy love...acording to the game keepers he wouldnt interact one on one with any of them...but me...he remembered and came bounding over for his loving.
there is no doubt in my mind that animals have the capability to love...
Cats form deep emotional love bonds with both people and other animals. If you've ever seen a cat or dog grieve over the loss of another animal or a human, you would understand that.
Cats do not form "deep emotion love bonds..." with anyone. You will never find any reputable animal behaviorist that would suggest that your cat feels love.
I am a huge animal lover. And just for the record. My dog and cat are inside animals. But that doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with an ANIMAL living outside.
I love my animals. But I also know that they don't "love me" back. They can't. They are animals. They aren't self-aware.
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If you take the time and trouble to interact with him, he will love you and his personality and emotional depths will be developed to a level you obviously cannot comprehend. How sad, you just don't know what you are missing
Seriously? My German Shepherd is laying at my feet right now. He would disagree with your assessment...except that he can't. Because HE IS A DOG! I love him so much it makes me tear up. But I know he isn't capable of loving me back because he is a DOG! Not a person. You are assigning human emotion to an animal.
I think dogs and cats rule! But I understand that they are not people. They don't have human emotions. And you make your animals miserable when you pretend that they do. They don't like to be dressed up in little clothes. They don't like sit in strollers or ride is purses. They don't like bows in their hair. They aren't babies. They are animals.
but i 100% disagree that animals dont love their people...ive worked with many, ive been involved in zoology, wildlife rehab, shelters and vets offices and farms since i was a very very small child...
animals do form loving bonds with their family, plain and simple ALL animals, be it a dog or cat or a horse or pig...
I get what you are saying here. But I don't think what we see as a "loving bond" is really love. I think dogs are pack animals. I think they form attachments. I think they know that they need their pack in order to survive. But that's not love...at least not in the human sense.
Are they somehow higher on the animal value scale that pigs or horses? You could argue that cows aren't really pets. But horses are pets. Some pigs are pets. No one seems to have a problem with horses living outside in the barn. Or cows and chickens living outdoors.
Dunno. It really depends. Cows and pigs that are livestock have different needs than companion animals like dogs or cats. The kind of pig that is a pet is typically kept inside, in fact. Horses can be pets, indeed, and they are kept inside as best they can be it seems like and are not allowed to wander off on their own. Chicken make lousy housepet! (old SNL reference)
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But the suggestion that allowing an ANIMAL to be outdoors is cruel is just laughable.
Personally, I'm trying to combat the opposite in that way too many people think keeping a cat indoors is cruel. Or another way of looking at the same thing is that I'm trying to combat the suggestion that a cat NEEDS to be outside.
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Should dogs be outside? If you live out in the country and the weather is decent, I have no problem with dogs being allowed to roam around the property. I don't think any animal should be chained up. But dogs aren't unhappy spending time outdoors.
This is not really material since the argument has never been that a cat would be unhappy spending time outdoors. Neither is a dog unhappy, but in both cases roaming around on their own doesn't seem like a good idea.
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It amazes me that so many people insist on treating their animals like people.
LOL This is silly. Keeping a cat inside is treating an animal like a person? Hardly. We don't lock people inside. Why do we keep a hamster in a cage? Or a bird? Why is a horse in a fenced area or barn, or even cows in a fenced area in many cases? Same thing. Domesticated animals need a boundary. This is not treating the animal like a person; rather it is simply another act of caring for the animal.
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This thread isn't about what is best of the cats. This about meeting the emotional needs of the owners. Newsflash...Your cat does not love you. It's an animal. He stays because you feed him and clean up after him. When he rubs against you, he isn't showing you affection. He's marking you the same way he does a tree or the couch.
So I suppose your dog feels no emotional attachment to you at all? I believe there's a huge amount of evidence that would refute that, and most if not all of it also applies to cats. The cat does in fact mark us in the same way it marks a tree, heh. It also shows its affinity for us in various ways. If it were all about food, the cat wouldn't care so much when we're gone. It would just say "Oh, you're back? I didn't even notice." Instead a cat or dog clearly misses its human companions when they are not there, among many other indications of this bond.
Just because an animal doesn't have human emotions doesn't mean it doesn't make some sort of emotional connection with humans.
see i agree here with magnolia on some points... a horse for example...they are pets...why arnt they important enough to be an 'indoor pet' or a pig...i had a pet pig growing up, he was 100% a PET, he was a mini pig and a runt at that, at every risk from being stole, poisend or attacked by a larger predator....but its ok to keep him outside...because hes a pig...right? what makes him less on the pet importance chain than a cat?
if all cats shoudl stay indoors then ALL animals should stay indoors because to many people a horse or a pig or a chicken is of equal pet value as a cat or a dog...so should they be brought inside?
..
Come on, be reasonable . Horses, pigs, cows, they all have greatly different needs from what a cat needs. They all are animals and have capabilities most people will never understand, but not every species has the same environmental needs. How many people are going to deliberately point their car at a pig or horse to kill him if they see one on the side of the road? Put out poison or antifreeze? Scoop them up and do unspeakable things to them. It's not the same thing.
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but i 100% disagree that animals dont love their people...ive worked with many, ive been involved in zoology, wildlife rehab, shelters and vets offices and farms since i was a very very small child...
animals do form loving bonds with their family, plain and simple ALL animals, be it a dog or cat or a horse or pig...
or like in this case..
Welcome to Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/foxylarouge#%21/video/video.php?v=430598599645 - broken link)
a lion!!! (and thats not a 1 off case, i was personally involved in the hand rearing of a grey wolf whos mother had been shot on a hunting trip...once he was mature he joined a pack in a local sanctuary and i didnt see him for 5 years...when i returned to see how he had been doing i was greeted with a wagging tail lip licking ears back piddling absolutly extatic almost 6 year old wolf who not only remembered me but was displaying wolfy love...acording to the game keepers he wouldnt interact one on one with any of them...but me...he remembered and came bounding over for his loving.
there is no doubt in my mind that animals have the capability to love.
Yes. I didn't click the link, but I know the video you mean. When you watch that video, you can see the moment of recognition. It's fantastic isn't it?
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Originally Posted by mississippimagnolia
Cats do not form "deep emotion love bonds..." with anyone. You will never find any reputable animal behaviorist that would suggest that your cat feels love.
I am a huge animal lover. And just for the record. My dog and cat are inside animals. But that doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with an ANIMAL living outside.
I love my animals. But I also know that they don't "love me" back. They can't. They are animals. They aren't self-aware.
Seriously? My German Shepherd is laying at my feet right now. He would disagree with your assessment...except that he can't. Because HE IS A DOG! I love him so much it makes me tear up. But I know he isn't capable of loving me back because he is a DOG! Not a person. You are assigning human emotion to an animal.
I think dogs and cats rule! But I understand that they are not people. They don't have human emotions. And you make your animals miserable when you pretend that they do. They don't like to be dressed up in little clothes. They don't like sit in strollers or ride is purses. They don't like bows in their hair. They aren't babies. They are animals.
I'm not sure why you are talking about dressing animals up, as that is not the subject at hand and is something I abhor.
No, of course animals don't have human emotions, they have the emotions of their own species. Animals love. I'm not sure what behaviorists you follow, I don't watch that kind of crap. But animals love. I feel sorry for you, that you don't know that. Or perhaps you do, really, and just like arguing, that's the impression I am starting to get from you.
I'm glad your pets are inside animals. And they are too, even if you don't realize it.
I think dogs and cats rule! But I understand that they are not people. They don't have human emotions. And you make your animals miserable when you pretend that they do. They don't like to be dressed up in little clothes. They don't like sit in strollers or ride is purses. They don't like bows in their hair. They aren't babies. They are animals.
I actually agree with all this, especially the dress up and otherwise treat as babies part. Always has bugged me. Ick. But I don't agree that this translates to the animal has no emotional bond at all. The evidence suggests otherwise. It's not a human emotion, duh! But it is akin enough that I'm not sure what else we should refer to it as other than emotion or feelings.
the definition of "loce'
1. transitive and intransitive verb feel tender affection for somebody: to feel tender affection for somebody such as a close relative or friend, or for something such as a place, an ideal, or an animal
2. transitive and intransitive verb feel desire for somebody: to feel romantic and sexual desire and longing for somebody
3. transitive verb like something very much: to like something, or like doing, something very much
"I love watching old movies on TV."
4. transitive verb show kindness to somebody: to feel and show kindness and charity to somebody
"love your enemies"
5. transitive verb have sex with somebody: to have sexual intercourse with somebody ( dated )
while animals dont seem to have a "romantic" love, they do show all other signs and definitions of love...
and quite the opposite, most animal behaviourists will say that animals do feel LOVE, not the romantic human version of it...
but its certainly more than them seeing us as posessions or a source of food.
(i Am an animal behaviourist by training...)
they are absolutly self aware, they are aware of themselves and their existence in the world...there not just 'going through the montions" of life, they are living.
animals have a much more complex mental and emotional system than many humans still give them credit for.
i dont think its nessicarily the exact kind of love that humans feel...
but they certainly feel more of a connection than you are giving them credit for.
as a side note...my dogs actually do like to be dressed up...as a matter of fact 1/2 hour ago my female whent to her basket filled with sweaters and pulled out a sweater and brought it to me...(i did not ask her to do this) she then proceded to attemtp to put it on herself...
why?
she was cold...
my male got all excited when seeing me put rubies sweater on and wouldnt stop pestering untill i got his sweater out...hes not quite as dexterous as my female so cant 'dress himself' but he was certainly happy to let me put it on him and is now sleeping contentedly around my neck.
if thats not some form of self awareness i dont know what is...she put together the fact she was cold with the fact that sweaters keep her warm and ta-da a NONE TRAINED natural behaviour.
yup, she HATES clothes! lol
(i dont do froo froo dresses ect unless were going to a fun event...but a sweater to protect an otherwise nakkid dog form the elements is NOT treating a dog as a baby...my dogs are dogs, they are not children...)
terrific post Foxywench. and yes, I agree with you, a sweater to protect from the cold is not at all the same thing as dressing animals up for human amusement, especially if she likes it and asks for it .
Cats do not form "deep emotion love bonds..." with anyone. You will never find any reputable animal behaviorist that would suggest that your cat feels love.
I find it quite incredible that a person who professes to love animals could make this statement. I can only assume that it comes from a person who has a definition of "love" that requires some human element, like the presence of a "soul" wherein your religious beliefs preclude you from accepting that a cat has a soul.
Otherwise, everything you have said on this subject is pure nonsense.
A child having love for his aunt and uncle may choose the aunt and uncle from the population of all other strangers because of habit, practice, presence, dependence, and proximity. Does the affection of a cat to its owner differ in these regards?
Or is it about the level of intelligence that brings you to this odd belief? A cat isn't smart enough to love? Is that it?
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(old SNL reference)
. Horses, pigs, cows, they all have greatly different needs from what a cat needs. They all are animals and have capabilities most people will never understand, but not every species has the same environmental needs. How many people are going to deliberately point their car at a pig or horse to kill him if they see one on the side of the road? Put out poison or antifreeze? Scoop them up and do unspeakable things to them. It's not the same thing. 
