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Then start using language that reflects that, instead of this
"Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
As far as racism is concerned, it is still alive and well in Canada today. Ironically enough I have never been called a Ni**er in the US, but have been called that in Canada"
I stand corrected.
Just out of curiosity Natnasci, what race are you and how many different countries or rather cities (Oops I almost did it again!) have you lived in? If we are going to drill down to technicalities, then surely we may as well go all the way.
Thank you for this post Fusion, and I understand that you get discrimination on a personal level yourself.
That is exactly why when my gay friends tell me about something that made them feel uncomfortable I sit and listen and respect their opinions as those who have lived this personally. I have NO way, nor will I ever understand how it is to be gay, same way you will never know how it is to be black. It is just your nature to to see things as positive, while I am a little more "militant" for lack of a better word. It does not make either of our approaches right or wrong, just different.
I will never invalidate your experiences or those of other blacks but more and more everyday all minority groups in Toronto are moving to a better future and I do tend to look at things from this angle. It is this approach that I think represents the best hope for all. The traditional power base is becoming decentralized and this will only continue imo.
So we are tolerant of gays and we vote for Asian, Indian politicians yet for some reason we have increased intolerance towards blacks... Perhaps but I think it is more likely because Blacks are more well reflected in absolute and per cap terms in the U.S.. Even Calgary which I blv has been cited as the most 'racist' city in Canada has ele ted an Indian Mayor and Toronto looks set to elect An Asian Mayor...
I do think blacks as a group have made more strides in the U.S than Canada but I think its more to do with numbers as opposed to large scale intolerance to blacks.. Irregardless, intolerance of all kinds is dying here and I look forward to the day it is at an absolute min...Go to any High School in the GTA, particularly those with heavy diversity and the interaction is very encouraging - they don't have the baggage that even my generation had and im only 38.
No. Immigrants are far more successful in the US than in Canada. Compare Indians and Africans and Asians in the US with Canada. The American ones are far more successful. Africans are the most educated in the US, and Asians are the richest demographic. There is nothing like this in Canada. People go there with PhD's and are suckered into driving cabs. Things may be getting better in Canada, but if you want to make a comparison with the US, minorities in the US are more successful regardless of numbers. We have less Asians yet they are far more successful.
BS is that map. A black guy is above me literally telling you his experiences. This the problem with Canada, you guys just dont get racism. You totally miss the mark and dont understand it. Its not about having a map of racist countries or telling yourself you are tolerant. If we dropped most Canadians off in Louisiana and had them live around a majority black populace their racism would become apparent.
Canadas "advantage" is having a very white populace where minorities are divided into little groups so none of them are big enough to pose a threat to white superiority. Hence there are less racial incidents and things appear to be good. But you guys never really look into how it is for those small minorities of blacks or Asians or Indians. The guy above you is telling you his experience and I think it is incredibly short-sighted to write his experience off.
I am a white man and I try to actually listen to my black countrymen and how racism affects them. I think this is how racism can be solved. As a white person we are very seperated from the experience of minorities and it is hard for us to see how things actually are for other people. We only see our little bubble. And in Canada people dont want to see outside their white bubble. It is more about claiming to be the least racist (as you have done with your map) rather than taking any real action. Canadians claim that there isnt a problem or that the problem has been solved. But there is a problem. Im a white guy and I believe that the key is to let blacks and other minorities talk about their grievances rather than ignoring it because it makes me uncomfortable. We have racism, I admit that and know it is real, and I want to solve it, not write it off because I dont like how it sounds!
THIS!!!
fusion2, I have been to many, many cities in the most conservative states in the U.S. and I have NEVER experienced any homophobia. None of the LGBT people I know here have shown or told me that they feel uncomfortable. I always see them happy and laughing. Gee, I wonder why? Is it because there's no homophobia in the U.S. South? Or could being straight have something to do with it? As well as the fact that, not knowing my opinions very well, my LGBT friends may not trust me enough to tell me how they really feel, or what homophobia they've actually experienced. Despite the lack of homophobia that I witness, I notice that I never see gay people holding hands here, and realize there is something outside of my straight bubble.
I think you should realize that you have no idea what it's like to live in the shoes of a non-White person in Toronto, even if you see them everyday.
No. Immigrants are far more successful in the US than in Canada. Compare Indians and Africans and Asians in the US with Canada. The American ones are far more successful. Africans are the most educated in the US, and Asians are the richest demographic. There is nothing like this in Canada. People go there with PhD's and are suckered into driving cabs. Things may be getting better in Canada, but if you want to make a comparison with the US, minorities in the US are more successful regardless of numbers. We have less Asians yet they are far more successful.
In absolute terms or per capita terms... The U.S is a larger country than Canada is and has a larger economy. It also has a different immigation policy so depends on how you measure success. You should back up your claims with thorough comparitive data since making the claim is an extraordinay one. For the record I didn't claim immigrants in Canada were more successful than immigrants in the U.S - I said as time goes by and our immigrant and vis min population grows in absolute and per capita terms, so too will their prominence.
fusion2, I have been to many, many cities in the most conservative states in the U.S. and I have NEVER experienced any homophobia. None of the LGBT people I know here have shown or told me that they feel uncomfortable. I always see them happy and laughing. Gee, I wonder why? Is it because there's no homophobia in the U.S. South? Or could being straight have something to do with it? As well as the fact that, not knowing my opinions very well, my LGBT friends may not trust me enough to tell me how they really feel, or what homophobia they've actually experienced. Despite the lack of homophobia that I witness, I notice that I never see gay people holding hands here, and realize there is something outside of my straight bubble.
I think you should realize that you have no idea what it's like to live in the shoes of a non-White person in Toronto, even if you see them everyday.
I think it is a stretch to state that there isn't homophobia in large U.S cities...I'm 38 and the homophobia and incident that occured with me happened in the mid 90's as a teen.. Toronto and Canada has evolved greatly since that time and now Toronto is a bastion for gay tolerance.. I'm happy to say that in the villiage where that rock was thrown at me 20 years ago - that doesn't happen anymore. Additionally Toronto was the first city in N.A to host Worldpride which is a reflection of the city and Canada's strong record on gay rights..Did you say you never see gays hold hands in Toronto? Is that what you are saying if so that is the most fraudulant claim of the week in CD lol......
No as a white person I can't claim to walk in the shoes of a vis minority but I did grow up in the Jane and Finch community in Toronto, have more vis min friends than white and im married to a Mestizo born in Venezuela.
I think it is a stretch to state that there isn't homophobia in large U.S cities...I'm 38 and the homophobia and incident that occured with me happened in the mid 90's as a teen.. Toronto and Canada has evolved greatly since that time and now Toronto is a bastion for gay tolerance.. I'm happy to say that in the villiage where that rock was thrown at me 20 years ago - that doesn't happen anymore. Additionally Toronto was the first city in N.A to host Worldpride which is a reflection of the city and Canada's strong record on gay rights..Did you say you never see gays hold hands in Toronto? Is that what you are saying if so that is the most fraudulant claim of the week in CD lol......
That is not the point he/she was trying to make, but I will allow them to explain further.
Quote:
No as a white person I can't claim to walk in the shoes of a vis minority but I did grow up in the Jane and Finch community in Toronto, have more vis min friends than white and im married to a Mestizo born in Venezuela.
Regardless of where you grew up, associate with or marry there is still a disconnect when you have not experienced it personally.
Remember when we spoke about the police brutality/racial profiling issue in another thread? You were not aware of how bad it was around the GTA. The Toronto Star releases the data and shows that the Toronto Police Services target and documents black males at an even higher rate than the NYPD, which are NOTORIOUS for their stop and frisk tactics, and then people have to accept it.
So myself and basically every black dude I grew up with can say that this is not in the least bit surprising, because most of us have been harassed, documented and in some cases brutalized (Ive been all of the above!) but for some reason this was a huge revelation to the rest of Toronto! How could that be? They grow up with black folks, work with black folks, see black folks all around them, but there was that one thick layer that prevents them from truly understanding what life is for black folks. You can gain understanding for others to a certain extent, but it is no replacement for living their experience personally on a daily basis.
I think if people kept this in mind more often, we would have come alot further than where we are today, because sitting back and listening and shutting that fahk up, lends itself to learning about another persons experience much better than brushing it off as not reality, because you haven't seen it yourself.
Im not saying that issues don't exist in Toronto and Canada and again im not discounting experiences nor am I claiming to be a vis min. Having said that I do know many vis mins, have many friends who are vis mins and yes I am married to one and quite frankly, they are more positive than what im seeing in here - by a long shot and these are the people and the kids I see growing up who are going to change the city for the better - not some posters who left years ago..It is the one's who are sticking with the place, love it and are actively making it better day after day, like myself an open minded gay white guy and some other vis min posters, some of whom are succesful blacks in this very forum from Toronto and they are here, you know them and we will make the city and our country greater..You are most welcome to come back up and join the fight with us.
This isn't to say we shouldn't identify issues and you do offer valued insight, but would love to see a bit more balanced posts recognizing progress and improvement instead of incessant underscoring of the negative... I mean heaven forbid some posters in here, not you specifically, discuss the vast majority of people who work at fast food restaurants in many U.S cities or who is cleaning your hotel room...Go to any place in California and I can tell you it ain't a white person cleaning that room.
Police brutality and profiling is an issue in Toronto - you will get no argument from me there...It isn't just aimed at blacks Edward - look what happened to Sammy Yatim...We have work to do just like countless U.S cities have work to do stemming horrendous levels of vis min violent crime particularly in relation to Canadian cities.
I reread Usuario's post and understood the context of it as an 'outsider' but hey, at least I got the chance to throw in that T.O was the first city in N.A to get Worldpride and is a kick butt gay mecca Anyway I should be forgiven Usuario hasn't said one positive thing about Toronto or Canada like.....EVER.
We have some of the same prejudices against visible minorities as Americans, and I think the presence of American media has a lot to do with that. It's at least a little less extreme in Canada... because of our different histories there are no extremist groups here like the KKK or the Black Panthers. People aren't as paranoid about gangs and crime with regard to blacks and hispanics because of our much lower gun crime rates. As others have pointed out, there's a lot of ignorance and bigotry directed at indigenous people.
Weirdly enough, the U.S. apparently had more open friction amongst white ethnic groups during the 20th century than Canada experienced. I've heard that there was a lot of antagonism towards Polish, German, Italians, Irish, etc. from the other whites in the U.S. mostly because they came to the U.S. as poor peasant immigrants. They were more likely to be blue collar or "working class" during the 20th century. In Canada, the immigrants from these countries were more likely to be middle or upper class and educated in their homelands. For whatever reason, they encountered less open discrimination.
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Anyway I should be forgiven Usuario hasn't said one positive thing about Toronto or Canada like.....EVER.
