Question re: Loving Frank vs. The Women (cover, children, book club)

[DawnMTL]

Hi everyone,

So, I've got a question for you guys.

I'm an avid reader, and have been hooked on non-fiction in recent years, primarily memoirs. In the last couple of months, I started to feel like I had "memoir burnout" so I read "The Imperfectionists," which I highly recommend, by the way.

In looking for a bit more fiction to read, I noticed that many of you really enjoyed Loving Frank (by Nancy Horan), and this appealed to me because it seemed like it was a blending of fiction and non-fiction. I also noticed that when most of you talked about Loving Frank, you also referenced T.C. Boyle's The Women.

As I'm wont to do -- let's call it a mild case of obsessiveness -- I ended up ordering both of them. And then I got to thinking: So, here I am, dipping my toes into the fiction pool again, and I order TWO books that are "about" Frank Lloyd Wright? Hello, OCD, I'm right over here!

So, yeah, my question: Are these two books very similar? Did I commit overkill?? Is there one that you suggest I read first? Or does it not matter, because I'm going to be bored with the second one anyway?

Thoughts?

[RDSLOTS]

I am guilty of the very same thing, DandJ.

My good friend and neighbor, ironically enough, was reading Horan's Loving Frank, and I had picked up a copy of TC Boyle's The Women, thinking I had picked up what she was reading. So, we each read our selection, and then swapped. In the the meanwhile, our neighborhood Book Club decided to read Loving Frank, and I suggested adding The Women to the mix. It made for a great discussion this past week.

I would suggest starting with Horan's Loving Frank first. Boyle's book will be easier to follow, second. Horan's work only covers Frank's affair with Mamah Borthwick Cheney, who, along with her husband, Ed Cheney, was a client of Wright's. Mamah leaves her husband for Frank, and the whole deal is quite scandalous. I think what Horan's fiction adds is Mamah's thoughts as the book is from her perspective, and is less about the architect, and more about her relationship with him.

TC Boyle's book picks up with Wright's 3rd wife (4th affair, but 3rd wife), and works in reverse. At the last third of his life, Wright meets the Russian dancer, Olga, and they begin a relationship, while he is separated from wife No. 2, Miriam Maude Noel Wright. Miriam is a trip. Wright's first wife, and mother to his six children, finally divorces him when Miriam comes along, when she would not give him up for Mamah.

I think Boyle's book will be a little less confusing, reading it second. It is told from the viewpoint of one of the Taliesin assistants, a young Japanese architect who comes to the states following Wright's commission on the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo. Once you get into maybe the second chapter, or so, it starts to flow in a backwards mode, of course. I really liked the style of writing in Loving Frank, and what makes Boyle's work a bit more fun sometimes, for me, is the footnotes the assistant adds, which are either explanation or commentary.

Hope you enjoy reading the two works as much as what I have. I have carried the whole OCD-thing a bit further in that I've since been reading bios of the architect, and looking at my own books that have pictures and descriptions of his buildings. My favorite two books of Wright's works are pop-ups, if you can imagine.

Wright also wrote a number of books, one of which is his autobiography which I think would be fun because of the insight into his personality. I also watched a documentary of the architect and his life and work, that even features a very young Mike Wallace conducting the interview -- cigarette in hand, and smoke swirling on the black-and-white screen.

[DawnMTL]

Thank you so much for your explanation!

Funny enough, Loving Frank arrived this morning and, through process of elimination, I started with that one.

I had skimmed the Amazon preview of The Women the other day and will admit to being confused right off the bat because I didn't know who or what Taliesin was. Granted, I wasn't even really reading -- just glancing -- but it threw me.

I remembered, though, how much I loved Tortilla Curtain (the only other Boyle book I've read, and highly recommend to you, by the way), so I guessed that I'd figure it out when I started reading it.

I'm happy that Loving Frank got here first but I'm also happy that you've explained the chronology to me so that I don't get aggravated and wonder if I made a mistake buying both books.

Wow! You really carried that OCD torch! I'm impressed! And I really, really like you for it! Now go get and read Tortilla Curtain, won't ya?

[DawnMTL]

I'm REALLY enjoying Loving Frank. So much so, in fact, that I'm reading it very slowly to make it last. I'm just about two thirds of the way through it, so I'd better slow down some more -- I really don't want it to end. If The Women is half as good, once I get to that one, I'll be a happy camper.

[pinetreelover]

Originally Posted by DandJ

Thank you so much for your explanation!

Funny enough, Loving Frank arrived this morning and, through process of elimination, I started with that one.

I had skimmed the Amazon preview of The Women the other day and will admit to being confused right off the bat because I didn't know who or what Taliesin was. Granted, I wasn't even really reading -- just glancing -- but it threw me.

I remembered, though, how much I loved Tortilla Curtain (the only other Boyle book I've read, and highly recommend to you, by the way), so I guessed that I'd figure it out when I started reading it.

I'm happy that Loving Frank got here first but I'm also happy that you've explained the chronology to me so that I don't get aggravated and wonder if I made a mistake buying both books.

Wow! You really carried that OCD torch! I'm impressed! And I really, really like you for it! Now go get and read Tortilla Curtain, won't ya?

Interesting thread with such helpful input. I read "Loving Frank" and then wasn't sure if "The Women" would be redundant so I haven't picked it up yet. This dialog inspires me to check it out.

Also... I loved "Tortilla Curtain"! Of course, I read the entire book with a knot in my stomach about what mishap/tragedy would happen next, but it was a great, thoughtful read!

[DawnMTL]

Originally Posted by pinetreelover

Also... I loved "Tortilla Curtain"! Of course, I read the entire book with a knot in my stomach about what mishap/tragedy would happen next, but it was a great, thoughtful read!

Have you read any other T.C. Boyle stuff?

It's a funny thing -- the only one that tempted me was Tortilla Curtain (LOVE!) but none of the others seemed of interest. Until now, with The Women, which I'll read after I've read a couple of other books because I don't want to read it back to back after Loving Frank.

[PeacenHarmony]

This is the next pick for my book club. I have it on order from my book store I hope its a good read (keeping an open mind)

[DawnMTL]

Originally Posted by PeacenHarmony

This is the next pick for my book club. I have it on order from my book store I hope its a good read (keeping an open mind)

Loving Frank is the next pick? I really didn't think I'd like it. At all. Really. I don't even know why I bought it, I had that low hopes for it. But I'm not just liking it -- I'm LOVING it.

[RDSLOTS]

The Book Club to which I belong here in my neighborhood choose Horan's Loving Frank, and because some are fast readers or had already read the work, we added TC Boyle's The Women. Both books are good reads, but I still advocate reading Loving Frank first; Boyle's work is excellent -- fills in so many of the gaps in reference to the architect, Frank Lloyd Wright, but may be difficult to get into as sections of the book are devoted to each of the women in Wright's life, and moves backwards with the storyline, which works and makes sense, once you get into the work.

Boyles' work is also told from the viewpoint of one of his apprentices, and that is somewhat fun simply because the apprentice adds footnotes which bring a lot to the telling of the story. We, the readers, are a bit on the outside of the story as what he was, but he can explain some things to us, as well as add his own commentary.

Loving Frank is more about Mamah Borthwick Cheney, and less about Wright, and is a great choice for a Book Club -- so much there for discussion. We looked at women in the time period (moving into their own, and out of that Victorian mindset, many against the norm of the day); the notions of love, and motherhood, and whether one gives up being a woman when she marries and has children; Mamah's sharing her experience of witnessing the movement in architecture, and living, in a building brought about Wright's approach to what he called 'organic architecture.' Cheney and her husband had been clients of Wright's.

If you are reading Loving Frank, and are not familiar with the architect's life, I'd suggest you do just a little research, if only to read what's available on Wikipedia. Many were upset, and shocked, by what becomes of Mamah.

Boyle's The Women is a good follow-up. It picks up with Wright's third wife (fourth love), and progresses backwards, which works well, because the couple was plagued (literally) by Wright's second wife, Maude Miriam Noel. You also glean much about the architect -- his arrogance, the charisma that attracted others to him and afforded him the talent of wooing and ultimately winning, many of his clients. Having read Loving Frank, Boyle's book lets you see the relationship with Mamah, too, from his perspective.

This is a fun post -- almost like getting to continue the discussion of the two books. I have to be careful not to spoil your reading them, I'll admit. If you subscribe to NetFlix, there is a documentary on Wright which is also a great supplement to your reading.

[DawnMTL]

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

The Book Club to which I belong here in my neighborhood choose Horan's Loving Frank, and because some are fast readers or had already read the work, we added TC Boyle's The Women. Both books are good reads, but I still advocate reading Loving Frank first; Boyle's work is excellent -- fills in so many of the gaps in reference to the architect, Frank Lloyd Wright, but may be difficult to get into as sections of the book are devoted to each of the women in Wright's life, and moves backwards with the storyline, which works and makes sense, once you get into the work.

Boyles' work is also told from the viewpoint of one of his apprentices, and that is somewhat fun simply because the apprentice adds footnotes which bring a lot to the telling of the story. We, the readers, are a bit on the outside of the story as what he was, but he can explain some things to us, as well as add his own commentary.

Loving Frank is more about Mamah Borthwick Cheney, and less about Wright, and is a great choice for a Book Club -- so much there for discussion. We looked at women in the time period (moving into their own, and out of that Victorian mindset, many against the norm of the day); the notions of love, and motherhood, and whether one gives up being a woman when she marries and has children; Mamah's sharing her experience of witnessing the movement in architecture, and living, in a building brought about Wright's approach to what he called 'organic architecture.' Cheney and her husband had been clients of Wright's.

If you are reading Loving Frank, and are not familiar with the architect's life, I'd suggest you do just a little research, if only to read what's available on Wikipedia. Many were upset, and shocked, by what becomes of Mamah.

Boyle's The Women is a good follow-up. It picks up with Wright's third wife (fourth love), and progresses backwards, which works well, because the couple was plagued (literally) by Wright's second wife, Maude Miriam Noel. You also glean much about the architect -- his arrogance, the charisma that attracted others to him and afforded him the talent of wooing and ultimately winning, many of his clients. Having read Loving Frank, Boyle's book lets you see the relationship with Mamah, too, from his perspective.

This is a fun post -- almost like getting to continue the discussion of the two books. I have to be careful not to spoil your reading them, I'll admit. If you subscribe to NetFlix, there is a documentary on Wright which is also a great supplement to your reading.

Yes, this definitely IS fun. I don't participate in book clubs, mostly because I read so quickly, start another book right away, and have forgotten the essence of the chosen book by the time the book club meets.

About the two points that I highlighted in your post:

1. That's exactly why I have NOT done any research online. I was fearful that I'd make a "discovery" that would ruin the ending of Loving Frank. What DOES become of Mamah? Tell me. No, don't tell me. Yeah, please tell me. NO, please don't! HAHAHAHA!!! It's frustrating to be me sometimes! And I won't even have time to read this weekend, so I won't know until next week what happens to her... and to them. I don't think it's a happy ending... well, at least not in the fairytale sense.

2. Oooooh! What's the name of the film documentary? I'd love to put it in my movie queue.