Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Bill Mueller got just four votes and will be dropped in future years, along with Juan Gonzalez (23) and Vinny Castilla (six) and EY? why did Pedro Gomez vote for EY? "because he thought he was a good guy and he liked him" Pedro Gomez= knob
OK the nobs who voted for Mueller, Juan and Vinny Should have their credentials ripped away and I know what it is, there is a code among baseball writers to vote for guys who they know won't get into the HOF, they do this to show respect for "good guys" and guys that played the game the right way. It happens every year and sometime enough of them do this and you have Orlando Cepeda getting in and tainting the HOF. Like I said it currently has 297 members and could be stricken down to 150-200. It should be the best of the best not the good- very good players.
Morris doesn't deserve it neither does Bagwell(roids). I don't know how you can even consider a guy who didn't BA at least .300 maybe .320 I am not saying this is the end all be all stat but to prevent Cooperstown from becoming Canton where anyone is elected. Just my thoughts, and I am out on a island but I am not running from the fact that maybe half of the people should not be in the HOF.
In terms of the structure of the voting, Larkin capitalized on a window which is going to be shut for a number of years. Candidates who have been around for multiple elections are now going to be shoved to the backburner by a host of mega stars becoming eligible. The class of 2013 will feature not only the three poster boys for 'roids, Clemens, Bonds and Sosa, but also will have heavyweights Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio and Curt Schilling. In 2014 Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, Mike Mussina and Jeff Kent will appear for the first time. 2015 will yield John Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield, Nomar Garciaparra and Carlos Delgado.
That is seven first ballot types (Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Johnson and Martinez) and five or six who will be drawing more votes in the next several elections than anyone in the returning class with the possible exception of Bagwell.
In 2012, Larkin was free of any outstanding newcomers or outrageously overlooked retunees as competition. He dived through that window. No one else who was in today's election is going to get enshrined for at least four or five years, probably longer. Anyone whose eligibility expires during that time, such as Jack Morris, can kiss their writer election chances goodbye and start cozying up to the Vet Committee members.
In terms of the structure of the voting, Larkin capitalized on a window which is going to be shut for a number of years. Candidates who have been around for multiple elections are now going to be shoved to the backburner by a host of mega stars becoming eligible. The class of 2013 will feature not only the three poster boys for 'roids, Clemens, Bonds and Sosa, but also will have heavyweights Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio and Curt Schilling. In 2014 Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, Mike Mussina and Jeff Kent will appear for the first time. 2015 will yield John Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield, Nomar Garciaparra and Carlos Delgado.
That is seven first ballot types (Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Johnson and Martinez) and five or six who will be drawing more votes in the next several elections than anyone in the returning class with the possible exception of Bagwell.
In 2012, Larkin was free of any outstanding newcomers or outrageously overlooked retunees as competition. He dived through that window. No one else who was in today's election is going to get enshrined for at least four or five years, probably longer. Anyone whose eligibility expires during that time, such as Jack Morris, can kiss their writer election chances goodbye and start cozying up to the Vet Committee members.
Sorry but Schilling is no heavyweight. Early in his career he was nothing to brag about. Not until later on did he excel. If you let him in, then you have to put Bernie Williams in based on a long consistent career and Mattingly who also excelled for a number of years until the back injuries ate him up. Piazza is another one. Guy was a great hitter then he was a guy who could only hit the long ball. His defense was horrible. So you pretty much had a DH behind the plate with one of the worst ratios of throwing out runners. If you let him in, then Edgar Martinez should be in. Jack Morris was a smart pitcher and his ERA is deceiving. With big leads he would throw strikes and not worry about working the corners. He became an extreme contact pitcher and allowed the game to speed up. He also could eat innings better than most I have seen.
Sorry but Schilling is no heavyweight. Early in his career he was nothing to brag about. Not until later on did he excel.
Woah!
Curt Schilling produced 86 WAR in his career.
From 1960 to 2011 5 pitchers had more WAR. Those pitchers:
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez.
Now, all of those guys besides Martinez pitched substantially more innings. If we look at WAR per 250 innings we get:
Martinez 7.9
Clemens 7.4
Johnson 6.9
Schilling 6.6
Maddux 6.0
Ryan 4.3
Quote:
If you let him in, then you have to put Bernie Williams in based on a long consistent career
Nope.
Schilling 86 WAR
Bernie 48 WAR
Schilling had the 5th most WAR amongst pitchers since 1960
Bernie had the 21st most WAR amongst CFers since 1960
Quote:
and Mattingly who also excelled for a number of years until the back injuries ate him up.
Nope.
Mattingly 46 career WAR. 32nd amongst 1Bmen between 1960 and 2011.
Quote:
Piazza is another one. Guy was a great hitter then he was a guy who could only hit the long ball. His defense was horrible. So you pretty much had a DH behind the plate with one of the worst ratios of throwing out runners.
Piazza is 7th ALL TIME in WAR for catchers with 66.7
He's 1st ALL TIME in offense for catchers with 425 batting runs.
He's 2nd to last ALL TIME (Ed Taubensee is worse) with negative 63 fielding runs.
Johnny Bench, the best catcher of all time (81.5 WAR) was worth
302 batting runs and 71 fielding runs
If you let him in, then Edgar Martinez should be in.
Martinez has 70 career WAR. He's generally considered on the cusp
Quote:
Jack Morris was a smart pitcher and his ERA is deceiving. With big leads he would throw strikes and not worry about working the corners. He became an extreme contact pitcher and allowed the game to speed up. He also could eat innings better than most I have seen.
For his career:
With a lead of 4 or more runs Morris gave up 4.30 runs per 9 innings
With a lead of -3 to 3 runs Morris gave up 4.23 runs per 9 innings
Where's the evidence?
And before you go off on 'stats', read the article that I posted
Sorry but Schilling is no heavyweight. Early in his career he was nothing to brag about. Not until later on did he excel. If you let him in, then you have to put Bernie Williams in based on a long consistent career and Mattingly who also excelled for a number of years until the back injuries ate him up. Piazza is another one. Guy was a great hitter then he was a guy who could only hit the long ball. His defense was horrible. So you pretty much had a DH behind the plate with one of the worst ratios of throwing out runners. If you let him in, then Edgar Martinez should be in. Jack Morris was a smart pitcher and his ERA is deceiving. With big leads he would throw strikes and not worry about working the corners. He became an extreme contact pitcher and allowed the game to speed up. He also could eat innings better than most I have seen.
Piazza is the best hitting catcher of all time. Piazza is in without a doubt. Piazza and Edgar Martinez shouldn't even be spoken of in the same sentance.
Piazza is the best hitting catcher of all time. Piazza is in without a doubt. Piazza and Edgar Martinez shouldn't even be spoken of in the same sentance.
They are actually very similar hitters.
Quote:
OBP
Piazza .377
Martinez .418
SLG
Piazza .545
Martinez .515
wOBA (measures total offense)
Piazza .389
Martinez .405
wRC+ (measures offense relative to the league average)
Piazza 140 (40% better than average)
Martinez 148 (48% better than average)
Batting Runs
Piazza 425
Martinez 568
But, Martinez was a better hitter than Piazza.
Of course, Piazza was a catcher and Martinez was a DH. We can factor in their defensive contributions.
Piazza was an absolute beast with a 9+ WAR season, a 7+ WAR season and 4 6+ WAR seasons while Martinez was more consistent with 1 7+ WAR season and 5 6+ WAR seasons.
In terms of the structure of the voting, Larkin capitalized on a window which is going to be shut for a number of years. Candidates who have been around for multiple elections are now going to be shoved to the backburner by a host of mega stars becoming eligible. The class of 2013 will feature not only the three poster boys for 'roids, Clemens, Bonds and Sosa, but also will have heavyweights Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio and Curt Schilling. In 2014 Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas, Mike Mussina and Jeff Kent will appear for the first time. 2015 will yield John Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Gary Sheffield, Nomar Garciaparra and Carlos Delgado.
That is seven first ballot types (Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Johnson and Martinez) and five or six who will be drawing more votes in the next several elections than anyone in the returning class with the possible exception of Bagwell.
In 2012, Larkin was free of any outstanding newcomers or outrageously overlooked retunees as competition. He dived through that window. No one else who was in today's election is going to get enshrined for at least four or five years, probably longer. Anyone whose eligibility expires during that time, such as Jack Morris, can kiss their writer election chances goodbye and start cozying up to the Vet Committee members.
Good post, I also liked the article on ESPN yesterday about the class of 2013:
Piazza is the best hitting catcher of all time. Piazza is in without a doubt. Piazza and Edgar Martinez shouldn't even be spoken of in the same sentance.
I guess you didn't understand the comparison. Piazza was useless behind the plate and that's why I consider him a DH. Edgar was a great hitter. Obviously he didn't have the power that Piazza had.
I'd vote for Bonds in a heartbeat, and I think he will eventually get in, but it won't be for several years.
Before his drastic increase in size he was a great ball player during the pittsburgh years. That's why i think he should get in. As a person I think he is a POS but it should be mostly based on his on-field performance.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
