Bangor to Declare War? (Millinocket, East Millinocket: 2015, vacation home, unemployed)

[Maineac]

The real goal should probably be to acquire it to simply prevent every lake, pond and river up that way from being subdivided into lots. That's what happens when the pulp and paper industry disappears. They may be open, and "available" for now (if you pay the gate fees), but money talks. When the economic balance shifts from timber production to the discounted net present value of the future sale of hundreds of camp lots, you may have a problem getting to "God's Country." It happens, over time, everywhere in Maine. There is more value in a $100,000.00 camp lot than there EVER will be in the timber production on that acre or 2 acre parcel. It is not developed now because it's in Tree Growth tax treatment, and taking it out would cost penalties and interest. This is why Plum Creek, with a long-term plan and permitting, hasn't gone hog-wild as yet. That and the market needs an uptick. If you have 40 acres on Moosehead and can legally subdivide that into 40 or more camp lots at $100,000 each (probably more), do you worry about "God's Country" or your balance sheet?

[arctichomesteader]

The TIMO's and REITS were almost the worst thing to ever happen to the forests of the northeast in the past half century. So short-sighted. The things I've seen (but probably better not post for legal reasons) with Plum Creek's "forestry" are downright scary if anyone values the forests.

[Maineac]

The trouble is, the paper companies only valued the forests for the fiber they could extract in the cheapest way possible. They've already cut and run. Operations like Plum Creek are watched like hawks, but because shareholders in the multnational paper companies did not want to become land developers, it was cleaner and more profitable for the paper companies to divest. Plum Creek's profits will come from development.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

I have followed Scott Paper for many years. I know a family that got a 100 year camp lot lease for $99 in 1901. That isn't per year; That's what it cost the family for a 100 year lease. In 2001 the company raised the rate. Nobody was surprised.

Then Scott sold out to Plum Creek for the same reason that Mead sold the Rumford mill. Plum Creek didn't perform their due diligence. Plum Creek had to give up their rights on 99% of their land in order to get a plan approved. What they have approved is a plan, no more, no less. The environmental industry and LURC (now LUPC, pronounced loopsie) extorted control of 99% of Plum Creek's investment. That smackdown of the forest industry continues to resonate through the forest industry nation-wide. Plum Creek has an approved concept to sell some camp lots on and near some lakes. Good luck getting a building permit on any of those lots. How many families are prepared to go up against lawsuits by the environmental industry. Even if a family wins one lawsuit there will be another environmental group with another lawsuit ready to go.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

I have followed Scott Paper for many years. I know a family that got a 100 year camp lot lease for $99 in 1901. That isn't per year; That's what it cost the family for a 100 year lease. In 2001 the company raised the rate. Nobody was surprised.

Then Scott sold out to Plum Creek for the same reason that Mead sold the Rumford mill. Plum Creek didn't perform their due diligence. Plum Creek had to give up their rights on 99% of their land in order to get a plan approved. What they have approved is a plan, no more, no less. The environmental industry and LURC (now LUPC, pronounced loopsie) extorted control of 99% of Plum Creek's investment. That smackdown of the forest industry continues to resonate through the forest industry nation-wide. Plum Creek has an approved concept to sell some camp lots on and near some lakes. Good luck getting a building permit on any of those lots. How many families are prepared to go up against lawsuits by the environmental industry. Even if a family wins one lawsuit there will be another environmental group with another lawsuit ready to go.

The paper companies pretty much eliminated 99 year leases by saying to Lessees "you are now year-to-year, go ahead and sue us." I remember Jack McPhee's camps on Haymock. That was leased land. (Jack died in a seaplane crash). So were his camps on Cliff and Spider. The paper companies made "adjustments" for commercial operations so they could obtain bank financing on the leasehold (PHB in that case) for operations. And, at some point, you have to be called out on your misinformation campaign about any "environmental industry" trying to prevent individuals from using their land. DEP/LUPC approval and yes, they'll get building permits, but they won't get to run straightpipes from the toilets into the lake, build the camp hanging out over the water or clearcut and pave their entire lot, like in your "good old days."

Now, go back and talk about your hatred for the Downeast Lakes Trust. I just watched an hour show outlining the entire Trust and its land and wildlife management goals. The whole gang in Grand Lake Stream is all for it, including the guides. The forester and harvesting company that manage the land are all for it. Full access, with guarantees of never seeing a "no trespassing" sign or a gate, ATV's snowmobiles, fishing, hunting . . . and they're getting the 22,000 or so acres next to W.Grand, same exact access. Making things up to suit political agenda fed in to individuals from out-of-state interests that really have nothing in common with those they use to spread the propaganda is pretty offensive to real Mainers.

[bangorme]

Grand Lake Stream is an interesting deal. Call the town office and ask them to recommend a place you can camp there. Camping is specifically outlawed there. Gee, who benefits from that? Well, all the lodge owners benefit I guess. So, I don't disagree with the concept of a trust guaranteeing access to public water. It's a great concept. Just keep in mind that these things don't exist in a vacuum, and if you dig into it a little you'll find that they benefit and protect the sporting camps, lodges, and guides.

[Cuffler]

Can someone please provide a generalized synopsis to what's being presented for the North West? I'm confused as someone "from away" but longing to be a resident. We've been good customers of the Libby Camps and have very much enjoyed the Great woods numerous times over the years. Seems, however, that things are "achanging".

I know that the owner of the "Burt's Bees" product was one of the facilitators of ruining many of the long-standing out-camp contracts in many of the territories. Are there other offenders out there looking to make access to the woods more difficult?

Rome

[TheKezarWoodsman]

As an outsider, i have a suggestion. What if the proposed parl became reservation land, very limited construction, current homes stay, people keep their land, and logging companies can do highly restricted operations, as after all they have the rest of the state .

[Northern Maine Land Man]

That's a noble suggestion, wolfhelm, but such promises have been made before in places like the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and the Cuyahoga Valley of Ohio. They smile and agree. Then they drive people off their land. They don't pay what the land is worth and the families become destitute economic refugees. Oh, they will be allowed to live in a government approved apartment "core service community", but it's a miserable life compared to the farm they had.

[TheKezarWoodsman]

Or, make baxter a national park, after all its already reserved land for the state. They want a national park, make the state park national...