Afro american officials and afro american crime (Baltimore: employment, high school)

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

The issue is in the perpetrators motivations for the crimes being committed...
and how much of that is rooted in other public policies that limit options available to them.

At the property crime level and some lower level assaults plus of course almost all prostitution...
how much of that is NOT directly related to users seeking funds to pay for their dope?

Some of these people might want to quit. OK help them.
As to the rest don't make it difficult or expensive to get their dope.

At the felony assault and up through murder charge levels...
how much of that is NOT directly related to sellers seeking to make/defend their market?

If we aren't going to have the collective spines required to fix the legality issues head on...
re-legalize the natural state AG products and re-medicalize the pharmaceuticals...
then we have only ourselves to blame for the fallout... the crime being complained about.

I think they're a farce.

Anyone who has enough going on in their life otherwise to do well in them (family, school, jobs)
is just as likely to get past a minor use issue without them. As to those with or close to having
a more substantial use issue... residential cold turkey interventions and then back on the horse.

And while it may sound harsh... I really and truly have NO ISSUE with dope fiends killing themselves
and clearing that bother and expense from the public purse. Write them off.

The CRIME problems to focus on are NOT done by users.

Interesting. The point of drug courts as I understand them is to limit the strain on the court system, something you seemed to be concerned with in your first post in response to the information about Gov. Hogan. Granted, if society adopted your approach, it would render it moot, but we aren't there yet and may never be.

I'm not on board with the idea that we should blame ourselves for drug crime, or have lost our ability to speak ill of it simply because our society hasn't adopted your suggestions on ag. products and pharms.
Until the time when your ideas are implemented, we live in a world where drugs aren't legal, and abusers will leave jail, get back on them, and repeat the cycle of victimizing others to get their fix. The victims of this crime are not to blame for the behavior of the victimizers, however unfortunate their circumstances may be. There is an element of personal responsibility in play.

I get your focus on shifting the attention to fixing the issues on the front end of the problem, but there is a back end, or more accurately a rock bottom, that exists right now where a community suffers because the same small group of people won't change their own drug using behavior, and refuse to follow our laws concerning the appropriate way to fund it. Prison is the only way I see to make sure "that community" and "our community" don't interact in a way that harms the rest of us. It is an imperfect solution, but it beats the victimizer being set loose in our communities.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MyGoldenLife

Well if the White politicians can't do much about the crime in White communities, why do you think majority Black communities in Baltimore can do any better? Pot meet kettle.......

"I" know there's crime. However, discussions like this would leave some to believe no one in White communities commits murder, domestic abuse, arson, stealing, patricide etc. Lucky for me, I'm not one of them.......(who would not believe)

Who are you talking to? If I mentioned anything about "black crime" and "black politicians" in my posts in this thread, please quote them.

I'll wait.................

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Interesting.
The point of drug courts as I understand them is to limit the strain on the court system...

Nah. That's just the press release.

What they're about is a maneuver to address the social welfare problem of drug use/abuse
and pretend that it can be done within the CJ system ... The "system" and it's supporters need to
be able to pretend that the rare and low level change they can sometime effect can actually mean
something more in the larger societal context. In my view they fool themselves.

Mostly it's about the system offering cover for the "nice kids" with support from family, school, jobs etc
to get a second or third chance without the indignity of a criminal record following them.

...we live in a world where drugs aren't legal, and abusers will leave jail, get back on them,
and repeat the cycle of victimizing others to get their fix... where a community suffers because
the same small group of people won't change their own drug using behavior, and refuse to follow
our laws concerning the appropriate way to fund it.

Prison is the only way I see to make sure...

Expand your visual and philosophical horizons.
Or.. abusers will just continue to leave jail, get back on them, and repeat the cycle.
(Whether in Cumberland or West baltimore)

It's your choice.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

Nah. That's just the press release.

What they're about is a maneuver to address the social welfare problem of drug use/abuse
and pretend that it can be done within the CJ system ... The "system" and it's supporters need to
be able to pretend that the rare and low level change they can sometime effect can actually mean
something more in the larger societal context. In my view they fool themselves.

Mostly it's about the system offering cover for the "nice kids" with support from family, school, jobs etc
to get a second or third chance without the indignity of a criminal record following them.

Expand your visual and philosophical horizons.
Or.. abusers will just continue to leave jail, get back on them, and repeat the cycle.
(Whether in Cumberland or West baltimore)

It's your choice.

That part is certainly true, although I suspect you know the same as me it takes ALOT before "nice kids" get anything but a mild rebuke or a ride home to dad's house.

I really wish simply expanding visual and philosophical horizons was a solution, but it isn't. It is a proposed solution that neither of us have the power to implement. The world needs both visionaries espousing the ideal, and people willing to deal with the way the world is right now, and that sometimes means discussing imperfect solutions that get better results than the alternatives.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

I really wish simply expanding visual and philosophical horizons was a solution, but it isn't.

No... it's not a solution. But it is the first step toward what is clearly needed.

...and people willing to deal with the way the world is right now, and that sometimes
means discussing imperfect solutions that get better results than the alternatives.

And that's how we get plea bargaining and bench trials and time served...
and the "problem" of early release that this thread started with.

Eventually enough decision makers will tire of the absurdity.
---

“In simple terms, the War on Drugs is the criminalization of people who use and sell drugs,” says Franklin,
now the executive director of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP), an educational nonprofit that has swelled
to 160,000 members since its founding.

“It is the policy we have chosen in managing this use of drugs which has become more problematic than drug use itself.”[LEFT]
Read more: http://nationswell.com/leap-neill-fr...#ixzz4rOCiLnlb

LEAP Advocates For Legalization Of Drugs

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

No... it's not a solution. But it is the first step toward what is clearly needed.

And that's how we get plea bargaining and bench trials and time served...
and the "problem" of early release that this thread started with.

Eventually enough decision makers will tire of the absurdity.
---

“In simple terms, the War on Drugs is the criminalization of people who use and sell drugs,” says Franklin,
now the executive director of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP), an educational nonprofit that has swelled
to 160,000 members since its founding.

“It is the policy we have chosen in managing this use of drugs which has become more problematic than drug use itself.”[LEFT]
Read more: LEAP Advocates For Legalization Of Drugs

LEAP Advocates For Legalization Of Drugs

...and people willing to deal with the way the world is right now, and that sometimes
means discussing imperfect solutions that get better results than the alternatives.

That second part is important too. The overuse of plea bargins, etc. are not getting us better results........but they do allow the SAs and judges to clock out on time, at least up here. That is a big part of my county's criminal justice problem, folks who still think it is 19diggity8 up here and being a judge or attorney is a 9-5 gig with few implications on the rest of their community.

But hey, thanks for the conversation. I look forward to reading your ultra-conservative budgeting advice. I would like to say I am close to achieving your benchmark, but even in affordable Cumberland, my housing costs are still probably too high.

[MyGoldenLife]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

I'll agree with you about the failed War on Drugs. It does not make sense to me either than non-violent drug offenses should be so harshly punished. They suck up space and resources needed for violent offenders.

As for the futility of prison as an answer, I suppose I would say by the time a person is convicted of a major crime, whatever social welfare issues they may have become secondary to the need to protect the rest of society from our neighbors that would do us harm. That is the point of prison, separating the functional citizens from those members of society who victimize others. The idea that prisons will succeed in rehabing criminals and preventing recidivism is flawed at best, a little lie we tell ourselves at worst.

Sadly, prison is the answer for individuals who have no desire to function as law-abiding members of society. If you can get to people and change their ways before they victimize others, that would be ideal, but once a person rejects the social contract and victimizes their fellow citizens, their "social welfare" issues become secondary to the right of the rest of us to remove those from our society that actively harm others.

1. Is this thread about Baltimore?
2. Is Baltimore predominantly Black
3. Are you partaking in this discussion?
4. You are MOST definitely talking about Black crime.

Get over it.

[MyGoldenLife]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Interesting. The point of drug courts as I understand them is to limit the strain on the court system, something you seemed to be concerned with in your first post in response to the information about Gov. Hogan. Granted, if society adopted your approach, it would render it moot, but we aren't there yet and may never be.

I'm not on board with the idea that we should blame ourselves for drug crime, or have lost our ability to speak ill of it simply because our society hasn't adopted your suggestions on ag. products and pharms.
Until the time when your ideas are implemented, we live in a world where drugs aren't legal, and abusers will leave jail, get back on them, and repeat the cycle of victimizing others to get their fix. The victims of this crime are not to blame for the behavior of the victimizers, however unfortunate their circumstances may be. There is an element of personal responsibility in play.

I get your focus on shifting the attention to fixing the issues on the front end of the problem, but there is a back end, or more accurately a rock bottom, that exists right now where a community suffers because the same small group of people won't change their own drug using behavior, and refuse to follow our laws concerning the appropriate way to fund it. Prison is the only way I see to make sure "that community" and "our community" don't interact in a way that harms the rest of us. It is an imperfect solution, but it beats the victimizer being set loose in our communities.

1. Is this thread about Baltimore? Check yes it is
2. Is Baltimore predominantly Black Check yes it is
3. Are you partaking in this discussion? Oh yeah....then that means
4. You are MOST definitely talking about Black crime.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MyGoldenLife

1. Is this thread about Baltimore?
2. Is Baltimore predominantly Black
3. Are you partaking in this discussion?
4. You are MOST definitely talking about Black crime.

Get over it.

So..you found nothing in my posts to back up the words you put in my mouth.


Pro Tip: People often expand the discussion beyond the original thread title on C-D forums.

[papichulo2]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Pro Tip: People often expand the discussion beyond the original thread title on C-D forums.

thats why when i saw whoever wrote the racist title of this post I didn't even have to read the rest…