Who killed the electric cars?

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by PacoMartin

Not really.

OyCrumbler was using sales figures to call the EV1 an "abysmal failure". I merely pointed out that sales figures are always very small and prices are very high for a new technology. That is not a real reason to abandon the effort.

The Toyota Mirai may be a better example than the Tesla Roadster because it at least is within the range of affordability for millions. The MSRP for the 2016 Mirai was $57,500. The MSRP for the 2012 Tesla Roadster was $128,500.

Toyota Mirai US sales
2015 72
2016 1,034
2017 1,838
2018 1,689
2019 1,502
2020 499
2021 2,268

Despite the low sales, Toyota developed a second generation Mirai in 2021 because they believe that the technology will someday be more valuable.

Had the EV1 stayed in development all through the early 2000s it might have been relatively easy to switch it over to lithium-ion batteries once those become affordable. Instead we had to wait for the Chevy Bolt in model year 2017.

When have I said the EV1 was an abysmal failure?

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by OutdoorLover

The EV1 *was* an abysmal failure. Sales were virtually nonexistant, and if it was a real success they wouldn't have killed it!

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

When have I said the EV1 was an abysmal failure?

I'm sorry. I misquoted. OutdoorLover called the EV1 an abysmal failure.

California's 1990 ZEV plan would require General Motors to sell 4,650 battery-powered vehicles in 2003, then 11,625 three years later and 23,250 ZEV vehicles two years after that.

While it is true that the EV1 had some better performance characteristics using NiMH batteries than the Nissan LEAF which sold 22,000 vehicles in 2012. However in 2003 GM did not think it could support California's mandated minimums so they sued.

I think that the EV1 program could have limped along selling a few thousand vehicles a year for many years and given GM a platform to build on when the lithium-ion batteries came down in price. However, the California limits were too extreme and GM was forced to kill the program completely. Instead GM waited until model year 2017 to introduce the Bolt.

[cvetters63]

Originally Posted by PacoMartin

Instead GM waited until model year 2017 to introduce the Bolt.

To be fair, the Bolt was based on the battery and management tech in the Volt, which came out in 2010 as a 2011 model, and had been started by Bob Lutz back in 2006. So GM didn't wait THAT long before getting on the job again and was really one of the first to land on Lithium Ion tech.

[Suesbal]

There were electric vehicles built at the turn of the 20th century.

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by cvetters63

To be fair, the Bolt was based on the battery and management tech in the Volt, which came out in 2010 as a 2011 model, and had been started by Bob Lutz back in 2006. So GM didn't wait THAT long before getting on the job again and was really one of the first to land on Lithium Ion tech.

Very good point. But CARB was pushing for GM to sell 23,250 ZEV vehicles by 2008 which probably wasn't realistic.

It may be more accurate to say that CARB killed the electric car in 2003 by being unreasonable.

Remember when the ZEV program was formed in 1990, lithium-ion batteries for phones were just starting to sell as commercial products.

Originally Posted by Suesbal

There were electric vehicles built at the turn of the 20th century.

Actually there were EVs built in the 19th century. It was not until 1886, Carl Friedrich Benz ( 25 November 1844 – 4 April 1929), received a patent and began the first commercial production of motor vehicles with the internal combustion engine. Before that cars were electric. The lead-acid battery was invented in 1859 as the first rechargeable battery. In 1900, 28 percent of the cars on the road in the US were electric.