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Ehhh, until recently, EVs sucked, so no conspiracy is needed to solve the "mystery" of why these models were phased out in the past - poor sales, plain and simple.
Ehhh, until recently, EVs sucked, so no conspiracy is needed to solve the "mystery" of why these models were phased out in the past - poor sales, plain and simple.
Actually they had no trouble selling all the EVs from the 1990s even though they were uber expensive andhad very limited range. Some were used as movie props.
Actually they had no trouble selling all the EVs from the 1990s even though they were uber expensive andhad very limited range. Some were used as movie props.
Here are the sales figure for the GM EV1, the subject of the documentary linked by the OP
.. I mean, it was an abysmal failure.
Tesla sold about 2,450 Roadsters in over 30 countries, over 4 years and most of the last Roadsters were sold in Europe and Asia during the fourth quarter of 2012. I wouldn't call that an abysmal failure as much as it was for "early adapters" or people who are willing to pay a lot of money to see new technology in use.
GM managed to double the range of the EV1 from generation 1 to generation 2 as it moved from lead acid batteries to 26.4 kWh nickel metal hydride batteries (NiMH) . The generation 2 had better range than the Nissan LEAF with 24 kWh lithium-ion batteries when it was introduced in the US over a decade later in December 2010. The Nissan LEAF sold over 22,000 vehicles globally in the year 2011 with about 9,600 sales in the US.
In 2000 it was already clear that GM was going to lose its position as the number one automaker in the US. It wasn't too early to begin long term speculation on the future.
Top 10 selling vehicles in the year 2000
1. Ford F-Series — 876,716
2. Chevrolet Silverado — 645,150
3. Ford Explorer — 445,157
4. Toyota Camry — 422,961
5. Honda Accord — 404,515
6. Ford Taurus — 382,035
7. Honda Civic — 324,528
8. Ford Focus — 286,166
9. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan — 285,739
10. Jeep Grand Cherokee — 271,723
Tesla sold about 2,450 Roadsters in over 30 countries, over 4 years and most of the last Roadsters were sold in Europe and Asia during the fourth quarter of 2012. I wouldn't call that an abysmal failure as much as it was for "early adapters" or people who are willing to pay a lot of money to see new technology in use.
GM managed to double the range of the EV1 from generation 1 to generation 2 as it moved from lead acid batteries to 26.4 kWh nickel metal hydride batteries (NiMH) . The generation 2 had better range than the Nissan LEAF with 24 kWh lithium-ion batteries when it was introduced in the US over a decade later in December 2010. The Nissan LEAF sold over 22,000 vehicles globally in the year 2011 with about 9,600 sales in the US.
In 2000 it was already clear that GM was going to lose its position as the number one automaker in the US. It wasn't too early to begin long term speculation on the future.
Top 10 selling vehicles in the year 2000
1. Ford F-Series — 876,716
2. Chevrolet Silverado — 645,150
3. Ford Explorer — 445,157
4. Toyota Camry — 422,961
5. Honda Accord — 404,515
6. Ford Taurus — 382,035
7. Honda Civic — 324,528
8. Ford Focus — 286,166
9. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan — 285,739
10. Jeep Grand Cherokee — 271,723
Not sure why you're bringing Tesla into this, everyone knows they created the revolution. The EV1 *was* an abysmal failure. Sales were virtually nonexistant, and if it was a real success they wouldn't have killed it!
Sales were virtually nonexistant, and if it was a real success they wouldn't have killed it!
EV1 sold 1127 vehicles over 4 years, Tesla roadster sold 2450 roadster over 4 years, but most of them were in the last 6 months. I don't see how you can call one an "abysmal failure" and the other "the early phase of the revolution".
Obviously the in 1997 EV1 was developed too early to capitalize on a lithium-ion rechargeable battery, which had first been used commercially in 1991 by Sony for mobile phones. But as I said the NiMh batteries had the same capacity as the Nissan LEAF batteries introduced in December 2010.
EV1 sold 1127 vehicles over 4 years, Tesla roadster sold 2450 roadster over 4 years, but most of them were in the last 6 months. I don't see how you can call one an "abysmal failure" and the other "the early phase of the revolution".
Obviously the in 1997 EV1 was developed too early to capitalize on a lithium-ion rechargeable battery, which had first been used commercially in 1991 by Sony for mobile phones. But as I said the NiMh batteries had the same capacity as the Nissan LEAF batteries introduced in December 2010.
Paco did you try to use other factors besides sales figures to determine anything? I mean, the Tesla roadster was a small 2 seat sports car. Those don't sell well these days anyhow. And it was VERY expensive in it's day, another factor in it having low sales. I mean, how many of the Lotus's that it was based on sold in the same time frame? Those were not electric, and less expensive, so the sales figures should reflect that, no?
Lotus Elise sales figures during the time of the Tesla Roadster:
2011 - 321
2010 - 567
2009 - 548
2008 - 710
Looks like being an EV and expensive didn't hurt the sales of the Tesla at all. So for a small expensive sports car, it seems to have done pretty well.
Paco did you try to use other factors besides sales figures to determine anything?
Not really.
OyCrumbler was using sales figures to call the EV1 an "abysmal failure". I merely pointed out that sales figures are always very small and prices are very high for a new technology. That is not a real reason to abandon the effort.
The Toyota Mirai may be a better example than the Tesla Roadster because it at least is within the range of affordability for millions. The MSRP for the 2016 Mirai was $57,500. The MSRP for the 2012 Tesla Roadster was $128,500.
Toyota Mirai US sales
2015 72
2016 1,034
2017 1,838
2018 1,689
2019 1,502
2020 499
2021 2,268
Despite the low sales, Toyota developed a second generation Mirai in 2021 because they believe that the technology will someday be more valuable.
Had the EV1 stayed in development all through the early 2000s it might have been relatively easy to switch it over to lithium-ion batteries once those become affordable. Instead we had to wait for the Chevy Bolt in model year 2017.
Not sure why you're bringing Tesla into this, everyone knows they created the revolution. The EV1 *was* an abysmal failure. Sales were virtually nonexistant, and if it was a real success they wouldn't have killed it!
Well "sales" were non existent because you could not buy one - the only option was to lease and there are many reports of thousands on the waiting list, willing to do so - it was in the video also. They "killed it" for a few reasons - one of the reasons they built them was to argue that the CA zero mandate was unworkable so they were discouraging their use.
They "killed it" for a few reasons - one of the reasons they built them was to argue that the CA zero mandate was unworkable so they were discouraging their use.
Actually that makes perfect sense. If GM new that 5% and 10% was going to be a money losing operation than they would be strongly motivated to have the program fail to justify their lawsuit.
Originally in 1990 the California Air Resources Board required that in
1998, 2 percent of the vehicles that large auto manufacturers produced for sale in California had to be ZEVs, increasing to
5 percent in 2001 and
10 percent in 2003.
Those requirements were later reduced considerably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times
General Motors Sues California Over Quota for Electric Car Sales By Andrew Pollack Feb. 24, 2001
The General Motors Corporation filed suit today seeking to invalidate a new California rule that would require automobile manufacturers to sell thousands of electric cars in the state each year starting in 2003.
The company contends that the rule violates the state laws requiring regulations to be reasonable and prudent. General Motors, and the automobile industry in general, say that battery-powered cars are impractical and that the rule will bring about a minuscule reduction in air pollution at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.
The lawsuit, filed in state court in Contra Costa County, just east of San Francisco, said that to meet the requirements auto companies would have to produce thousands of small electric vehicles resembling golf carts that could travel on public roads and cause safety problems.
The California Air Resources Board has relaxed its requirements for pollution-free cars several times over the last decade. Last month it approved its latest plan, which would require that 2 percent of the cars sold by major manufacturers in 2003 have no tailpipe emissions, a standard that could be met only by battery-powered cars. Another 8 percent would have to have extremely low emissions. The plan would require the companies to sell 4,650 battery-powered vehicles in 2003, down from 22,000 under a previous plan.
The California regulations are expected to be adopted by New York, Massachusetts and Vermont. That could roughly double the number of electric vehicles required.
... rest of article omitted
The "funeral" for the EV1 was held on July 24, 2003 at Hollywood Forever Cemetery.
In 2019 GM sales in California were:
Perc 210,711
2% 4,214
5% 10,536
10% 21,071
So clearly GM sales by unit in 2002 and 2019 were similar.
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