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My BF's car didn't pass...again! The DMV won't give him another month's extension to prevent him from being pulled over by a cop & possibly having it towed away! The 2 options they gave him were:
1) Try to get $500 back to fix it further
- OR -
2) Try to get $1000 & turn in his car in which he'll have to find another car on eBay or something
HOW do people find out what needs fixing for their car to pass?! The cheapest mechanic/diagnostic he went to charged $25, but they didn't know what the hell they were doing because when they charged $200 to fix something, the car din't past a couple mos ago!
Anyway, my BF's so mad & stressed, he's probably going to turn his clunker in for the $1000.
sean sean sean sean, my BF's car looks more like the 2nd pic.
Does anyone else have any ideas, suggestions? I really appreciate all you guys have done to help!
I'll tell you straight up. This car sounds like a POS. Donate the car or sell it on craigs list for 500 bucks. Take that money and buy another clunker with an up to date inspection sticker and get another sub 1500k car. Stop throwing money away into something that needs more money then it's worth.
If your boy toy refuses tell him to go to the next inspection place in the little mexico part of town and offer the inspection dude 100-200 bucks for a sticker. These guys don't make crap so more than likely they'll take the money. In Texas we have the same crap but guys that have headers slip the guy money for the sticker since it's against the rules to have a car without cats. Just drive around until you find someone that will do it. You won't go to jail and no one will report you for asking.
HOW do people find out what needs fixing for their car to pass?! The cheapest mechanic/diagnostic he went to charged $25, but they didn't know what the hell they were doing because when they charged $200 to fix something, the car din't past a couple mos ago!
Anyway, my BF's so mad & stressed, he's probably going to turn his clunker in for the $1000.
sean sean sean sean, my BF's car looks more like the 2nd pic.
Does anyone else have any ideas, suggestions? I really appreciate all you guys have done to help!
Sucks... I know how annoying those emissions tests can be.
Did the NOx numbers at least come down somewhat after the O2 sensor/spark plugs were installed?
Unfortunately, there's no sure-fire/easy way to figure out exactly what needs to be fixed for it to pass. There are several different variables/systems/conditions/etc. that determine emissions levels so it's virtually impossible to say (for sure) without doing hands on testing. The easiest way would be to find a reputable shop to diagnose the problem, although that also appears to be an expensive option in your case. I guess things are different in California, because I've never been charged for diagnostics by a mechanic... might be worth it to call around a few places or check online for "free diagnostics" - gotta be at least one place around offering that service. With the place that charged $25, it's possible the EGR valve was faulty, but the engine has other problems that are still causing it to fail... but I'd go somewhere else anyway, doesn't seem like their $25 diagnostic services were that thorough.
If you can't find a shop that will give you a break and you wanna give it one last ditch attempt with the $500 credit, I'd say the best advice I can probably give is throw a new catalytic converter on there. You already did the EGR and O2 sensor (and I think you said the ignition base timing was adjusted last year?) - if it wasn't one of those it's gonna be a fuel mixture problem which could be one (or several) of many little things.
Turning it in for the $1,000 credit probably isn't the worst idea in the world either... but if that $1,000 is gonna make up the bulk of his budget towards a new vehicle, it's very likely it'll be something with just as many problems. You know what they say about "the devil you know..."
There are some things your BF can easily check out himself and don't require anything beyond the most basic mechanical knowledge. Here's an excellent primer on emissions failures that explains common causes in an easy to read manner. It's a Canadian site, but pretty much everything they say still applies to US/California testing.
If the Jimmy is like the one in the second picture I posted, it does have that computer controlled carburetor a few others had mentioned earlier (Dualjet, not Quadrajet) - unless it's a 4-cylinder, which isn't too common. If it's leaking gas, it should be pretty obvious. Just pull the air cleaner off and look around the base of the carb. This could definitely cause the engine to run lean, and it's a common problem on these carbs. If it's a small leak through one of the gaskets, sometimes you can get lucky and just tighten it down a little more.
It's also possible that there is a vacuum leak somewhere drawing too much air in. You should have miles and miles of vacuum hoses going into and out of the carburetor... best way I've found to check for them is to get a spray bottle of starting fluid (the FLAMMABLE kind, it'll be marked on the can) and slowly spray a little bit along each hose while the engine is running. When you come across a leak, you should hear it either bog down or rev up slightly - but BE CAREFUL not to go too overboard, since the starting fluid is (like the can says) highly flammable and you'll be spraying it near a hot engine.
Since it has the CCC system, it also has a diagnostic connector under the dash that you can use to flash any stored "check engine" codes out of - in fact, this is probably the first thing he'd want to do since a "lean condition" code will definitely indicate a fuel mixture problem. All you need is a paper clip. This website has a good explanation of how to do it (scroll down to "Does your check engine light come on?"). The diagram for the connector under the dash is the first image up top on the right-hand side of the page, and the list of what the codes mean is the last one on the bottom.
Does the car run rough or idle high/low? Usually a lean mixture will give you a high idle, but not always... in theory, the computer should also be able to "correct" the mixture somewhat - but in practice it's incredibly finnicky and needs all of it's billions of vacuum hoses and sensors in proper working order to run right. In other words, even if a code doesn't come up there still might be a mixture problem - but if one DOES come up, that's a sure sign of what his problem is.
Deez Nuttz, its a GMC Jimmy (my BF's car). I put the yr in my original post (80 something). Don't know engine size. It passes smog last yr somehow. No modifications done.
Ok, so I was re-reading your post.....apparently you have an S-15 Jimmy.
Only 2 engines were avaliable in those little trucks in '85...the 4 cyl and the 2.8 liter V6. Anything bigger than that will naturally pollute more.
The trucks like you have are popular for swapping V8's into. V8's pollute more than anything ever offered in an S-15 Jimmy. So if you have a V8 in there or even a 4.3 and the smog place show's it's supposed to be a 2.5 liter or a 2.8 liter, then it will fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Blue
HOW do people find out what needs fixing for their car to pass?! The cheapest mechanic/diagnostic he went to charged $25, but they didn't know what the hell they were doing because when they charged $200 to fix something, the car din't past a couple mos ago!
Well first off you need to have an understanding of how things are supposed to work.
You said initially the way you were able to pass the first time around was a timing adjustment. That sort of tells me you had a case of retarded timing and maybe not all of the gasses were ignited.
I would say start off by re checking the timing. Chances are your engine is old and the timing chain has stretched. If the chain has indeed stretched, then the timing will be off. It's really simple to check timing. And if it needs to have the timing adjusted, it's easy to do. So try checking the timing first.
Next I would make sure you have a clean air filter on the day of testing. A dirty air filter will make the engine run rich. Running rich means you have more fuel going in than you do air. This will certainly make you fail.
Also on your carb there might be a vacuum line that runs from a silver looking can on distributor base to the base of the carb. If there is, make sure there's no rot in the hose and there's a vacuum going to the can. That can when vacuum is applied, basically adds timing at idle to help burn off the excess hydrocarbons.
If you don't see this little can on the distributor, then it's possible you might have an electronic distributor such as what was offered at the factory. The vacuum ones I was talking about tended to cease after 1980 but some people do add them to 1985 vehicles because they don't like electronical stuff. From the factory your S-15 should have an electronic spark timing advance and not a vacuum one, but since I can't see your vehicle in person, I'm having to try to cover all possible bases.
Next open the passenger door and pull up the carpet under the black heater box under the dash. You might see a black pig tail connector with a tan wire. Make sure this isn't unplugged. This is what makes the electronic spark advance work. You're supposed to unplug this when you check the timing and once set you're supposed to re connect it. If you don't then you will get a check engine light/service engine soon light, plus the engine will idle real low and possibly cause you to fail a smog check.
All of the above methods are real easy to do.
If all above is checked and you still can't pass, then I'd pull the catalytic converter and check it. When you pull it off you should see a bunch of catalyst pellets. If you look thru it and it's hollow, this means someone "gutted" it in an attempt to get the engine to flow more air (for more power) and/or to have a deeper/louder sound. Gutting a cat is illegal and causes the vehicle to emit more hydrocarbons.
The next step you will need someone who can tune a carb well, but an untuned carb can cause high emission levels. If the mixture screws aren't set right or if the floats are not working right or if there's trash in the carb causing the needle to not seat right. Normally an untuned carb will cause the engine to run poorly. How well does the engine run?
Also have you tried seeing if the ECM has thrown any codes? It's easy to do....get you a Hayes or Chiltons manual at Autozone ($15-$25)...take a bare metal paperclip and with the ignition off, connect to the A and B terminals on the ALDL port under the dash above the gas pedal. Turn the key to RUN BUT DO NOT START VEHICLE! The service engine soon/check engine light will flash 1 time, pause, then 2 times for a code 12 of working right. It will flash this code 2 more times (for a total of 3) and then if there's a code in the ECM, it will flash it the same way (e.g. code 32: flash 3 times, pause, then flash 2 times) Once it flashes all the codes in the ECM, it'll reflash code 12 again. Then record the codes on a piece of paper and shut off the ignition. Make sure you take the paperclip out before you start the truck again. Then look up the codes in the Hayes/Chilton's manual or look them up online. Autozone used to give out free check engine light books with all the codes as well as free metal keys for jumping the ALDL ports.
What kind of 02 sensor did you replace the old one with? I've never had any good experience with Bosch sensors on my S-10's. Yes even a new sensor can go bad. And when a sensor goes bad, it can either be totally dead or tell the ECM to add a ton of fuel, resulting in a rich condition. So no more Bosch sensors for me. On the other hand, AC Delco I have had good luck with, though now that I believe they're being resourced to communist China, that may all change.
Hopefully some of these will help you out. I wouldn't just give up on the car, yet. Something tells me this is a really simple issue.
Last edited by Deez Nuttz; 04-13-2011 at 07:57 PM..
Next I would make sure you have a clean air filter on the day of testing. A dirty air filter will make the engine run rich. Running rich means you have more fuel going in than you do air. This will certainly make you fail.
It's failing for NOx, the HC and CO numbers are within spec so if anything it's running lean. Clean air filter is always a good idea, but there's no way that's what is making this car fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
Also on your carb there might be a vacuum line that runs from a silver looking can on distributor base to the base of the carb. If there is, make sure there's no rot in the hose and there's a vacuum going to the can. That can when vacuum is applied, basically adds timing at idle to help burn off the excess hydrocarbons.
If you don't see this little can on the distributor, then it's possible you might have an electronic distributor such as what was offered at the factory. The vacuum ones I was talking about tended to cease after 1980 but some people do add them to 1985 vehicles because they don't like electronical stuff. From the factory your S-15 should have an electronic spark timing advance and not a vacuum one, but since I can't see your vehicle in person, I'm having to try to cover all possible bases.
Timing is entirely computer controlled aside from the base setting... AFAIK all 1980+ GM cars were, with the possible exception of some full-size trucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
Next open the passenger door and pull up the carpet under the black heater box under the dash. You might see a black pig tail connector with a tan wire. Make sure this isn't unplugged. This is what makes the electronic spark advance work. You're supposed to unplug this when you check the timing and once set you're supposed to re connect it. If you don't then you will get a check engine light/service engine soon light, plus the engine will idle real low and possibly cause you to fail a smog check.
Worth checking because it's so easy, but again - doubtful since not enough advance would make it run extremely rich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
If all above is checked and you still can't pass, then I'd pull the catalytic converter and check it. When you pull it off you should see a bunch of catalyst pellets. If you look thru it and it's hollow, this means someone "gutted" it in an attempt to get the engine to flow more air (for more power) and/or to have a deeper/louder sound. Gutting a cat is illegal and causes the vehicle to emit more hydrocarbons.
If the cat were gutted it would be failing for everything, and there's no way it would have passed CA emissions last year. In fact, if the cat were bad at all it really should be failing for everything - but I suppose it's possible that just the part that reduces NOx output has failed while it's still able to control HC and CO. Plus, if the cat is old/original, installing a new one (even if there are some underlying problems) may be enough to get things within limits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
Also have you tried seeing if the ECM has thrown any codes? It's easy to do....get you a Hayes or Chiltons manual at Autozone ($15-$25)...take a bare metal paperclip and with the ignition off, connect to the A and B terminals on the ALDL port under the dash above the gas pedal. Turn the key to RUN BUT DO NOT START VEHICLE! The service engine soon/check engine light will flash 1 time, pause, then 2 times for a code 12 of working right. It will flash this code 2 more times (for a total of 3) and then if there's a code in the ECM, it will flash it the same way (e.g. code 32: flash 3 times, pause, then flash 2 times) Once it flashes all the codes in the ECM, it'll reflash code 12 again. Then record the codes on a piece of paper and shut off the ignition. Make sure you take the paperclip out before you start the truck again. Then look up the codes in the Hayes/Chilton's manual or look them up online. Autozone used to give out free check engine light books with all the codes as well as free metal keys for jumping the ALDL ports.
Good description of how to check the codes... I linked to this in the last post, but here's a table of the diagnostic codes - Deez Nuttz described the procedure better than they did:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
What kind of 02 sensor did you replace the old one with? I've never had any good experience with Bosch sensors on my S-10's. Yes even a new sensor can go bad. And when a sensor goes bad, it can either be totally dead or tell the ECM to add a ton of fuel, resulting in a rich condition. So no more Bosch sensors for me. On the other hand, AC Delco I have had good luck with, though now that I believe they're being resourced to communist China, that may all change.
I would have a shop double check that the EGR installation is actually working properly as well. It's entirely possible the shop that did it installed it wrong. I'd also have them check the base timing - possible that when it was adjusted last year it was advanced too far to compensate for a rich condition, and since then a vacuum leak or fuel leak at the carb has developed. Of course a GOOD shop should be checking all of this stuff and have a correct diagnosis and specific fix, instead of just randomly replacing parts...
I agree, most likely something simple that's just a big PITA to figure out.
First of all, I thank you for taking the time guys to type all this info out to help my BF out!
OK, $350 more & the saga continues. BF took got a new cat converter today & the mechanic practically guaranteed it would pass after driving around for about 2hrs. BUT, IT STILL DIDN'T PASS!
My BF drove right back to the mechanic. All he could say was maybe the engine didn't get hot enough.
My BF is so sick of the new DMV laws re: extensions. The lady there said that since people were only paying for registration & NOT getting their cars smogged, legislation has md it nearly impossible for people to get their cars extensions due to smog tests.
The only time you can get an ext is ONCE where you pay $50. Yrs ago, one didn't have to do that. The govt & state wants old cars off the road due to pollution, but what isn't fair is that in this lousy economy, people cn't just afford a newer car, so what are people supposed to do here!
MY BF thinks this is all bull$hit & says no wonder people go postal. I answered your questions BELOW:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean
Did the NOx numbers at least come down somewhat after the O2 sensor/spark plugs were installed?
Yes, in fact, it halfway passed this last smog test! Not at 15 mph, but is passed at 25 mph. NO (PPM) was 1870 & after the new cat, it's down to 1118. CO% used to be .50 & is now .01.
If the Jimmy is like the one in the second picture I posted, it does have that computer controlled carburetor a few others had mentioned earlier (Dualjet, not Quadrajet) - unless it's a 4-cylinder, which isn't too common. If it's leaking gas, it should be pretty obvious. Just pull the air cleaner off and look around the base of the carb. This could definitely cause the engine to run lean, and it's a common problem on these carbs. If it's a small leak through one of the gaskets, sometimes you can get lucky and just tighten it down a little more.
His car is a 2.8 liter V6 cylinder.
Does the car run rough or idle high/low? It idles a little lower & softer since getting the new cat converter today.
Good luck!
Thanks a lot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
Only 2 engines were avaliable in those little trucks in '85...the 4 cyl and the 2.8 liter V6. Anything bigger than that will naturally pollute more.
His car is a 2.8 liter V6 cylinder.
You said initially the way you were able to pass the first time around was a timing adjustment. That sort of tells me you had a case of retarded timing and maybe not all of the gasses were ignited.
I would say start off by re checking the timing. Chances are your engine is old and the timing chain has stretched. If the chain has indeed stretched, then the timing will be off. It's really simple to check timing. And if it needs to have the timing adjusted, it's easy to do. So try checking the timing first.
The timing is still good because the functional test of the smog test passed. The only thing failing is the emissions part of it.
Next I would make sure you have a clean air filter on the day of testing. A dirty air filter will make the engine run rich. Running rich means you have more fuel going in than you do air. This will certainly make you fail.
My BF says it's clean, otherwise the mechanic would let him know if it wasn't.
Also on your carb there might be a vacuum line that runs from a silver looking can on distributor base to the base of the carb. If there is, make sure there's no rot in the hose and there's a vacuum going to the can. That can when vacuum is applied, basically adds timing at idle to help burn off the excess hydrocarbons.
BF said that was fixed when the EGR was replaced.
Next open the passenger door and pull up the carpet under the black heater box under the dash. You might see a black pig tail connector with a tan wire. Make sure this isn't unplugged. This is what makes the electronic spark advance work. You're supposed to unplug this when you check the timing and once set you're supposed to re connect it. If you don't then you will get a check engine light/service engine soon light, plus the engine will idle real low and possibly cause you to fail a smog check.
BF says nothing's unplugged.
All of the above methods are real easy to do.
The next step you will need someone who can tune a carb well, but an untuned carb can cause high emission levels. If the mixture screws aren't set right or if the floats are not working right or if there's trash in the carb causing the needle to not seat right. Normally an untuned carb will cause the engine to run poorly. How well does the engine run? Mediocre he says.
My BF's taking it one LAST time to get smog tested tomorrow & if it still doesn't pass, he's DONE! He's going to drive the car around longer to mk sure the engine's nice & hot & he'll leave the engine running when he pulls into the smog testing place, so the guy can just drive it into the port to do the test.
If your oil is no longer really fresh, consider changing the oil. Normally I don't see any sense in super-short oil change intervals but if you have more than about 500 miles on the oil, change it, it will cost less than $10.Your problem is with HC, if you can't adjust the carb yourself, consider going to a tech who can.CA smog laws are draconian, but a sort of upside is you can frequently find good techs who can adjust the car so it will pass.Consider selling it to someone in NV or some other state where it won't have to pass smog.
OK, $350 more & the saga continues. BF took got a new cat converter today & the mechanic practically guaranteed it would pass after driving around for about 2hrs. BUT, IT STILL DIDN'T PASS!
My BF drove right back to the mechanic. All he could say was maybe the engine didn't get hot enough.
Yes, in fact, it halfway passed this last smog test! Not at 15 mph, but is passed at 25 mph. NO (PPM) was 1870 & after the new cat, it's down to 1118. CO% used to be .50 & is now .01.
Arrrghhhh... SO CLOSE!!
If you have them handy, could you repost all the numbers (NOx, CO2, etc.) from the most recent test? The CO numbers are now exactly where they're supposed to be, I'd be curious to see if the HC numbers came down as well. If they're still up (I know it passed for HC, but the figures were a little high) that's definitely a good indication of a lean fuel mixture - if they're not, it's more likely something else. Would also like to see how low the NOx figures are at 25MPH...
EVERYONE ELSE ON HERE - I just read up a little bit on the California emissions procedures and apparently the test is 15MPH at 50% load and 25MPH at 25% load? Anybody have any insight as to what might cause a car to fail ONLY for NOx at the lower speed/higher load but not at the higher speed/lower load?
To bring those just joining us up to speed...
-'85 GMC Jimmy S-15 / 2.8l V6 w/feedback carb, unsure of mileage
-EGR Valve, spark plugs, O2 sensor & catalytic converter have been replaced
-Car is (again) ONLY failing for NOx levels. Prior to replacing the cat, NOx was ~1600ppm at both 15MPH & 25MPH. Now it's @ ~1100ppm at 15MPH and somewhere <784ppm at 25MPH. 15MPH limit is 760ppm.
-Apparently CA emissions tests base timing so we can assume it's where it should be, spark advance is computer controlled and non-adjustable.
-Although this vehicle is carbureted, it functions in essentially the exact same way a TBI system does. The computer gets feedback from the TPS, MAP, O2 and coolant temp sensors and adjusts air-fuel mixture and spark advance accordingly. The only difference is that instead of a fuel injector the metering rods inside the carb are adjusted by a solenoid.
Two quick theories, certainly not definitive:
1) I believe this EGR valve is controlled off of ported vacuum signal on this engine. If the throttle plate is out of adjustment or the spring worn, that could explain why it's failing for NOx at 15MPH but not 25MPH. We don't know the NOx figures at 25MPH yet, but I'd lean even more towards this if they're closer to the average than the limit.
2) Engine running too hot?
Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Blue
My BF is so sick of the new DMV laws re: extensions. The lady there said that since people were only paying for registration & NOT getting their cars smogged, legislation has md it nearly impossible for people to get their cars extensions due to smog tests.
The only time you can get an ext is ONCE where you pay $50. Yrs ago, one didn't have to do that. The govt & state wants old cars off the road due to pollution, but what isn't fair is that in this lousy economy, people cn't just afford a newer car, so what are people supposed to do here!
MY BF thinks this is all bull$hit & says no wonder people go postal.
It most definitely IS total BS and it's insane that a 26 year old vehicle should have to pass any emissions tests. I live in NY and thankfully our state finally wised up and (as of less than a month ago!) only requires a "plug-in" test for 96+ cars, a "visual inspection" for cars 25 years old and newer, and no emissions whatsoever for cars older than that. The cost of keeping the testing equipment running for older cars wasn't paying off anymore, but it used to be just as bad here. I have an Oldsmobile with the same stupid old 1980s feedback carb emission system and I am soooo happy I do not have to get it tested now. To be completely honest, I've always "known somebody" willing to look the other way... not sure if that's an option in CA since they seem to stay on top of this stuff like crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Blue
My BF's taking it one LAST time to get smog tested tomorrow & if it still doesn't pass, he's DONE! He's going to drive the car around longer to mk sure the engine's nice & hot & he'll leave the engine running when he pulls into the smog testing place, so the guy can just drive it into the port to do the test.
ANY other info guys?
Hopefully it passes, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too much (sorry, don't mean to be a jinx)!!
I wouldn't give up, though!! You're almost there... there has to be an easy fix for this that will keep it passing emissions for several years. IMO putting the new cat on was a good move, you can still deduct that $350 from the $500 credit they'll give him, right? It definitely needed to be replaced if the numbers came down that much... you're going in the right direction here. Post those numbers and we'll try to help you figure it out.
Also if the car has a temperature gauge on the dash, does it run more towards the hot side?
EDIT -- Two last things you might want to do before hitting the test tomorrow.
1) Change the fuel filter. I seriously doubt this will make or break the test, but if it's clogged and you do have something of a lean mixture problem it'll nudge it at least a little more in the right direction... plus it's a $2 part and it takes 10 minutes to change. It's an inline filter where the fuel line comes into the front of the carb. Make sure not to lose the little spring!!
2) Leave the battery unplugged for an hour to reset the computer, hook it back up and then drive around as much as possible. The computer makes fuel & spark adjustments on the fly, but it also has a "block learn" function that stores data based on previous conditions. You've changed a whole bunch of parts recently, so it might still be biasing it's tables based on crappy feedback from faulty parts... I don't really know how long the stored data goes back, but it can't hurt. You probably don't need to leave the battery unhooked that long to reset it either, but I'm not sure exactly how long it takes and an hour sounds like it's more than enough.
Last edited by sean sean sean sean; 04-14-2011 at 11:24 PM..
sean, I truly, truly appreciate yours & others input! Whether it passes or not, you & others have really pulled through & helped my BF out a whole lot more than his own loser dad! I read my BF this latest post of yours. Regarding your question:
"if the car has a temperature gauge on the dash, does it run more towards the hot side?" my BF says a little.
Regarding reposting all the latest #s, I don't have that info anymore right now. Maybe if it was earlier this evening, I could have posted them. Sorry.
Yes, it seems like it's so close to passing! This is aggravating! Well, it's 11pm here & I may not be posting again here until after he takes it in again to be tested, BUT I'LL TRY TO POST BEFORE.
(I post in different colors so you guys can spot the latest post right away.)
Good night all & I'll keep you posted!
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The DMV won't give him another month's extension to prevent him from being pulled over by a cop & possibly having it towed away! The 2 options they gave him were:
