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Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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I've said this before, but I challenge everyone falsely claiming that the Civil War "wasn't about slavery" to watch the excellent 'The Civil War' documentary by Ken Burns and still say they believe that. It tells the story of the war as it happened without demonizing or exalting either side. It also makes it very clear what happened during the run up to the beginning of the war and what ultimately became the rallying cry for the Union.
Let's be clear about one thing: Admitting that the Civil War was about slavery and sedition does not mean you should be ashamed of your Confederate ancestors. And I say this a descendant of slaves. Despite the fallacy of their cause and their treason, most of the Confederates truly believed that they were fighting for their homeland. I think Ulysses S. Grant said it best when he said:
"I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe (The Confederates) who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us ..."
On the flip side, let's also not forget that the Union side weren't entirely composed of saints. It is true they did not begin the war to end slavery, but rather to preserve the Republic. It was only after many years and several battles did the Union cause shift to also ending slavery and allowing Black men to join the United States army. It is often forgotten that through the first few years of the war, even free Black Northern men were disallowed from joining and fighting because many Union generals and politicians thought they were an inferior people.
It also cannot be forgotten that after the war had completed, many of the Generals on the Union side took all they had learned during the war and used to ethnically cleanse the Midwest and West of Native Americans over the next few decades. Civil War general and hero Phil Sheridan was famously quoted in this regard "The only good Indian is a dead one.
So for all of you who have this fantasy that the Civil War was not at all related to slavery, man up and own it. The reality of the situation is that the only "State's Rights" the Confederates cause fought for was a State's right to own a slave. Period.
Ive read many a good PC argument against the flag, the southern cause being about slavery only, flag is offensive etc. I don't accept any of that, and I support the displaying of the flag of the confederacy. The principles of the confederacy did embrace states rights, that is a fact. Now I will admit that slavery was the trigger issue that started the war, and that fact is used to demonize the south over and over again. One must remember however that the north was not righteous, they fought only to preserve the union. Very few northerners were abolisionist, even fewer believed blacks should be equal citizens. The sharecropping system they set up as carpetbaggers did not benefit the black man in any way, in fact it exploited them at least as bad as slavery did. The north only began to see slavery as wrong after the importation of new slaves was banned, coincidently that is how they made money from slavery, by engaging in trade involving slaves. Also northerners did see themselves as facing an unfair labor situation with slavery in the south and them having to pay wages to workers. Economic interest drove a great deal of the abolitionist sentiment in the northeast.
If we look at the condition of our government today we can see the damage done by the northern victory in the war. Northern style big government federalism has led us to be an indebted people who are lorded over by a massive overbearing federal government. Our states no longer have the right to make their own laws, the feds dictate them to us. They tax us and redistribute our wealth, they pick our healthcare system, they use courts to force their social liberalism on us (abortion, gay marriage) and there seems to be no end in sight. Our freedom is gone, we have a nanny state that oversees most aspects of our lives. Had we respected the constitution and the 10th amendment as our founding fathers intended then none of this would have happened. The confederate leaders and state govenors knew this, and we should realize it too by now. Not only do I support honoring our confederate veterans, I also support revisiting the idea of a modern movement to re-assert states rights. If that is rebuffed by the overlords in Washington then succession is not such a bad option for the 21rst century. A new confederacy of southern and western states could restore American values, and traditional morality without the dead weight of the north dragging us down. What would the north get?? All the communism and gay marriages they want along with the 20 trillion dollar debt they ran up.
I've said this before, but I challenge everyone falsely claiming that the Civil War "wasn't about slavery" to watch the excellent 'The Civil War' documentary by Ken Burns and still say they believe that. It tells the story of the war as it happened without demonizing or exalting either side. It also makes it very clear what happened during the run up to the beginning of the war and what ultimately became the rallying cry for the Union.
Let's be clear about one thing: Admitting that the Civil War was about slavery and sedition does not mean you should be ashamed of your Confederate ancestors. And I say this a descendant of slaves. Despite the fallacy of their cause and their treason, most of the Confederates truly believed that they were fighting for their homeland. I think Ulysses S. Grant said it best when he said:
"I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe (The Confederates) who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us ..."
On the flip side, let's also not forget that the Union side weren't entirely composed of saints. It is true they did not begin the war to end slavery, but rather to preserve the Republic. It was only after many years and several battles did the Union cause shift to also ending slavery and allowing Black men to join the United States army. It is often forgotten that through the first few years of the war, even free Black Northern men were disallowed from joining and fighting because many Union generals and politicians thought they were an inferior people.
It also cannot be forgotten that after the war had completed, many of the Generals on the Union side took all they had learned during the war and used to ethnically cleanse the Midwest and West of Native Americans over the next few decades. Civil War general and hero Phil Sheridan was famously quoted in this regard "The only good Indian is a dead one.
So for all of you who have this fantasy that the Civil War was not at all related to slavery, man up and own it. The reality of the situation is that the only "State's Rights" the Confederates cause fought for was a State's right to own a slave. Period.
Great post, waronxmas. Of course no war is ever "only" about one thing, but it's undeniable that the issues around slavery were at the root of the Civil war.
And yes there were heroes and villains aplenty on both sides.
Had the conflict truly ended at Appomattox and had there been a genuine reconciliation, there might be a more understandable argument for waving the Confederate flag. Unfortunately the flag came to symbolize not just the end of a historical era but the ongoing defense of a social system based on racial apartheid.
Ive read many a good PC argument against the flag, the southern cause being about slavery only, flag is offensive etc. I don't accept any of that, and I support the displaying of the flag of the confederacy. The principles of the confederacy did embrace states rights, that is a fact. Now I will admit that slavery was the trigger issue that started the war, and that fact is used to demonize the south over and over again. One must remember however that the north was not righteous, they fought only to preserve the union. Very few northerners were abolisionist, even fewer believed blacks should be equal citizens. The sharecropping system they set up as carpetbaggers did not benefit the black man in any way, in fact it exploited them at least as bad as slavery did. The north only began to see slavery as wrong after the importation of new slaves was banned, coincidently that is how they made money from slavery, by engaging in trade involving slaves. Also northerners did see themselves as facing an unfair labor situation with slavery in the south and them having to pay wages to workers. Economic interest drove a great deal of the abolitionist sentiment in the northeast.
If we look at the condition of our government today we can see the damage done by the northern victory in the war. Northern style big government federalism has led us to be an indebted people who are lorded over by a massive overbearing federal government. Our states no longer have the right to make their own laws, the feds dictate them to us. They tax us and redistribute our wealth, they pick our healthcare system, they use courts to force their social liberalism on us (abortion, gay marriage) and there seems to be no end in sight. Our freedom is gone, we have a nanny state that oversees most aspects of our lives. Had we respected the constitution and the 10th amendment as our founding fathers intended then none of this would have happened. The confederate leaders and state govenors knew this, and we should realize it too by now. Not only do I support honoring our confederate veterans, I also support revisiting the idea of a modern movement to re-assert states rights. If that is rebuffed by the overlords in Washington then succession is not such a bad option for the 21rst century. A new confederacy of southern and western states could restore American values, and traditional morality without the dead weight of the north dragging us down. What would the north get?? All the communism and gay marriages they want along with the 20 trillion dollar debt they ran up.
Heaven help us in theface of such sharply hateful thoughts.
Ive read many a good PC argument against the flag, the southern cause being about slavery only, flag is offensive etc. I don't accept any of that, and I support the displaying of the flag of the confederacy. The principles of the confederacy did embrace states rights, that is a fact. Now I will admit that slavery was the trigger issue that started the war, and that fact is used to demonize the south over and over again. One must remember however that the north was not righteous, they fought only to preserve the union. Very few northerners were abolisionist, even fewer believed blacks should be equal citizens. The sharecropping system they set up as carpetbaggers did not benefit the black man in any way, in fact it exploited them at least as bad as slavery did. The north only began to see slavery as wrong after the importation of new slaves was banned, coincidently that is how they made money from slavery, by engaging in trade involving slaves. Also northerners did see themselves as facing an unfair labor situation with slavery in the south and them having to pay wages to workers. Economic interest drove a great deal of the abolitionist sentiment in the northeast.
If we look at the condition of our government today we can see the damage done by the northern victory in the war. Northern style big government federalism has led us to be an indebted people who are lorded over by a massive overbearing federal government. Our states no longer have the right to make their own laws, the feds dictate them to us. They tax us and redistribute our wealth, they pick our healthcare system, they use courts to force their social liberalism on us (abortion, gay marriage) and there seems to be no end in sight. Our freedom is gone, we have a nanny state that oversees most aspects of our lives. Had we respected the constitution and the 10th amendment as our founding fathers intended then none of this would have happened. The confederate leaders and state govenors knew this, and we should realize it too by now. Not only do I support honoring our confederate veterans, I also support revisiting the idea of a modern movement to re-assert states rights. If that is rebuffed by the overlords in Washington then succession is not such a bad option for the 21rst century. A new confederacy of southern and western states could restore American values, and traditional morality without the dead weight of the north dragging us down. What would the north get?? All the communism and gay marriages they want along with the 20 trillion dollar debt they ran up.
Before you secede...you should learn how to spell it...it's not succession. And what idiotic backwoods, inbreeding, retarded drivel this is. In terms of tax money and economic production, the "traditional" south is the dead weight. "American values" and "traditional morality" is just coded language for white males telling everyone else what they should do and believe. And the debt was run up by a white guy with American values and traditional morality fighting 2 wars while handing out tax welfare to the rich and corporations. Please go back to keeping this type of sad commentary between you and your cousin-wife.
Before you secede...you should learn how to spell it...it's not succession. And what idiotic backwoods, inbreeding, retarded drivel this is. In terms of tax money and economic production, the "traditional" south is the dead weight. "American values" and "traditional morality" is just coded language for white males telling everyone else what they should do and believe. And the debt was run up by a white guy with American values and traditional morality fighting 2 wars while handing out tax welfare to the rich and corporations. Please go back to keeping this type of sad commentary between you and your cousin-wife.
Sheesh. While I agree that it's nonsense to claim that slavery wasn't at the root of the civil war, comments like this don't do much to move the conversation forward either.
Ive read many a good PC argument against the flag, the southern cause being about slavery only, flag is offensive etc. I don't accept any of that, and I support the displaying of the flag of the confederacy.
It's not a "PC argument" just because you choose to label it that, and I've not read anyone who has tried to advance the theory of the "southern cause being about slavery only."
What I know I have said, because it's fact, is that the Civil War would not have been fought by the south had slavery not existed. It wasn't the only factor, but it was the root cause that led to several causes. To deny that is just plain ridiculous and ignorant.
The question isn't whether or not the north fought solely due to slavery since we know they did not. The question is about the Confederate flag and its meaning, and what it and the Confederacy represent.
You're free to fly the flag or put it on your car. I in turn am free to judge you and your motives.
There are times when some people need to be taken to the proverbial woodshed to receive an appropriate "Come to Jesus" rhetorical lesson.
Some "conversations" simply need to be nipped in the bud.
When it comes to the Civil War and the central rationale for it being waged? It is one issue that to me is plain in black and white. There is nothing to argue with this historical event; no nuance, no fine subtleties, and definitely no grey area.
Just like the honorable taurus2000, I will not indulge in anyone's insane need to overcomplicate a horrible war…a war that at its core, that was initiated and ultimately waged by malcontents & any other assorted Judases below the Mason-Dixon line...to preserve the most evil, utterly despicable, and oh-so mephistophelian enterprise in the whole history of humanity's existence.
Nothing personal against you, arjay.
But I totally back the taurus2000 on this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
Sheesh. While I agree that it's nonsense to claim that slavery wasn't at the root of the civil war, comments like this don't do much to move the conversation forward either.
Last edited by AcidSnake; 02-24-2014 at 08:57 AM..
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