What's Wrong with the Suburbs? (Atlanta, Dallas: real estate, standard of living, price)

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by erick295

You.

Believe it or not, "friendly" doesn't equate "being able to relax and enjoy the company of your fellow humans". If the latter applied, you would see a culture of relaxed street cafes and restaurants with outside seatings in the burbs, all over the place, with lots of people lingering over a glass of beer or cup of coffee for hours - talking about what not.

This is NOT WHAT you see in the city - let alone in the burbs!
It is usually <go out to restaurant, gulp the food and go back to the "to do" list>.
Don't tell me about young singles hanging out in bars in the city - this is not what I am talking about. Tell me about your average "married with children" adult, living in the burbs.

All of our international friends have told us that one thing they miss terribly is the culture of long conversations over a plate of food, a glass of beer or a cup of coffee. We agree.

This culture simply doesn't exist in the burbs - friendly Southerners or not. If there was, you would actually be able to see it in the streets.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by 10 feet tall

The same logic applies the other way too in the ITP vs OTP drama.

Sure. There are downsides to living in the city. You usually have a small place and you pay a lot for it. If we were talking about a real city, I would deal with these downsides; but when I have to pay the premium, deal with a small place AND STILL not get authentic city living - then it's going to be the least unpleasant burb I can find - and I will at least enjoy its affordability. That was my argument.

We have also found that for those few and true urban areas of the United States (as in NY, San Francisco, Boston and maybe a few more) - you need to be immortally rich to be able to do city life with children.

Real urban centers have pretty much spat out average Joes with children.

[billl]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Believe it or not, "friendly" doesn't equate "being able to relax and enjoy the company of your fellow humans". If the latter applied, you would see a culture of relaxed street cafes and restaurants with outside seatings in the burbs, all over the place, with lots of people lingering over a glass of beer or cup of coffee for hours - talking about what not.

We certainly have none of that in Woodstock.

You may think this doesn't exist at all, but it does exist in the central areas of some of the suburban towns. And I bet if I went to central Decatur or Marietta or Norcross I would find it there too. Is it as extensive as what you find in European towns and cities. No. But to say:

This is NOT WHAT you see in the city - let alone in the burbs!
It is usually <go out to restaurant, gulp the food and go back to the "to do" list>.

is painting with too broad of a brush.

Most local zoning ordinances actually make it hard to have an outdoor dining area, especially one where alcohol is served. The area has to be fenced off with access limited (so that the alcohol and/or the inebriated patrons won't escape and wreak havoc in the streets).

All of our international friends have told us that one thing they miss terribly is the culture of long conversations over a plate of food, a glass of beer or a cup of coffee. We agree.

This culture simply doesn't exist in the burbs - friendly Southerners or not. If there was, you would actually be able to see it in the streets.

Yeah well I see it. Maybe not in the streets, but certainly from the streets. Nearly every Friday evening. And when we can manage it, my wife and I have long conversations over plates of food at local restaurants. But you can keep your beer: we usually have wine with ours.

Frankly, these arguments grow very tiring. Not just you syracusa, but all the folks on this board that whine and argue about who is better than what: ITP versus OTP, this city versus that city, our culture versus their culture. Just go where you are happy, and enjoy life. And if you don't like where you are, then go somewhere else. Life is short. Enjoy it while you can.

[shalc]

Nothing is wrong with the suburbs. Not everyone can live in Oakhurst. I see nothing wrong with wanting a bigger house and better schools for your money. I live intown, but it's not realistic for everyone.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by shalc

Nothing is wrong with the suburbs. Not everyone can live in Oakhurst. I see nothing wrong with wanting a bigger house and better schools for your money. I live intown, but it's not realistic for everyone.

Hard to get better than Decatur city schools.

[staywarm2]

From what I see of today's parents with children is that they are incredibly busy with their kids--taking them to sports practices and other school activities, homework, play dates, etc. The parents also have their own careers, often stressful, demanding ones. So adults with children have a lot on their plates and not much time for socializing, let alone long, thoughtful conversations over wine or beer.

Americans work longer hours and more weeks per year than Europeans, with their month of August vacation and 2 hour lunches. Adults with kids in America must make many choices of how to spend their limited free time, and they don't have the luxury of selecting sitting at a café for a couple of hours and discussing world events and philosophical ideas.

Perhaps the popularity of smart phones and i-pads has a lot to do with people no longer communicating face-to-face as much these days--in the city or in the burbs. Ever notice two or three people sitting at a restaurant and they are all typing away on their devices--not a good way to spend quality time!

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by staywarm2

From what I see of today's parents with children is that they are incredibly busy with their kids--taking them to sports practices and other school activities, homework, play dates, etc. The parents also have their own careers, often stressful, demanding ones. So adults with children have a lot on their plates and not much time for socializing, let alone long, thoughtful conversations over wine or beer.

Americans work longer hours and more weeks per year than Europeans, with their month of August vacation and 2 hour lunches. Adults with kids in America must make many choices of how to spend their limited free time, and they don't have the luxury of selecting sitting at a café for a couple of hours and discussing world events and philosophical ideas.

Perhaps the popularity of smart phones and i-pads has a lot to do with people no longer communicating face-to-face as much these days--in the city or in the burbs. Ever notice two or three people sitting at a restaurant and they are all typing away on their devices--not a good way to spend quality time!

You got all this parenthood culture right; and this changes my argument about suburbs "how"?

Sometimes I wonder how the children of all those laid back European parents will survive - when their mom and dad failed to schedule them back-to-back for all activities under the Sun and chose instead to have a life hanging out in street cafes, all while allowing one for their kids as well. Time will only tell.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by syracusa

You got all this parenthood culture right; and this changes my argument about suburbs "how"?

Sometimes I wonder how the children of all those laid back European parents will survive - when their mom and dad failed to schedule them back-to-back for all activities under the Sun and chose instead to have a life hanging out in street cafes, all while allowing one for their kids as well. Time will only tell.

Syracusa, have read your posts here, you need to give the city some time before you form negative opinions of what makes a city and what doesn't. It is especially unfair to compare a city that didn't even exist until 160 years ago with ones that have 2000 years of history. Culture takes time to develop fully. That doesn't mean that culture is non-existant, unless you define culture too narrowly.

I lived outside of London 2 years so I know of the differences. I learned to appreciate what was different in that culture from the one I grew up in and loved my two years there. The spouse was constantly comparing what was different from home and had less of a good time. An open mind and attitude and willingness to appreciate the "different" will make an experience in a new place much more pleasant.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Syracusa, have read your posts here, you need to give the city some time before you form negative opinions of what makes a city and what doesn't. It is especially unfair to compare a city that didn't even exist until 160 years ago with ones that have 2000 years of history. Culture takes time to develop fully. That doesn't mean that culture is non-existant, unless you define culture too narrowly.

I lived outside of London 2 years so I know of the differences. I learned to appreciate what was different in that culture from the one I grew up in and loved my two years there. The spouse was constantly comparing what was different from home and had less of a good time. An open mind and attitude and willingness to appreciate the "different" will make an experience in a new place much more pleasant.

I will not argue with you on this one, Saintmarks. Of course it is not fair to compare a 160 year old modern city with a 2000 years old one. That being said, fair or unfair, the realities of modern cities remain what they are: they DO have less culture (even with liberal definitions of culture which remain highly controversial), fewer open public spaces, fewer venues, and overall, a reduced sense of place and community and an increased sense of isolation and alienation compared to older, established, historic ones that grew out organically over hundreds, if not thousands of years.

So if the comparison is not fair, how is it then fair for the newer city to act as if it is worth just as much in culture-related price, relative to its burbs, as the historic, 2000 years old one is?

If you ask me to pay an arm and a leg to live downtown London, I will understand where my arm and leg went; but if you ask me to pay almost the same arm and leg in Atlanta (maybe you'll leave me the pinky toe in this case), I will no longer understand. Since the new, modern city is way too similar to its suburbs - which are much more affordable - then it is only natural for many people to opt for the burbs. After all, look at how many millions live in the Atlanta burbs compared to the hundred thousands in the city.

London - vs. London burbs - huge difference.
Atlanta - vs. Atlanta burbs - not so much.

Regarding "attitude", I will get off topic a bit here, if you will: what you said reminds me of a study that I read about somewhere, long time ago, I don't remember where so don't ask me for link, which seemed to have found that when you compare American expats in Europe vs. European expats in the US, the former tend to adapt and learn to "appreciate the different" (as you put it) much better than the latter. On average, of course. This can mean several things, two of which could be:

1. Europeans are whiny, difficult, non-adaptable, rooted creatures compared to Americans who may be more light-hearted, easier-going, more flexible and adaptable (again, on average, as your wife clearly was not this prototype).

or

2. It might really be easier for human beings to tolerate less than prime material circumstances (as in tight, small, even somewhat uncomfortable dwellings) than to tolerate the loss of community feel, culture and human bonding (the spiritual) which often happens when someone moves from a traditional/historic/communitarian environment to a modern/private/isolated one.

This is, of course, going outside of the Atlanta OTP-ITP debate.
Not unrelated though.

[10 feet tall]

Originally Posted by syracusa

If you ask me to pay an arm and a leg to live downtown London, I will understand where my arm and leg went; but if you ask me to pay almost the same arm and leg in Atlanta (maybe you'll leave me the pinky toe in this case), I will no longer understand. Since the new, modern city is way too similar to its suburbs - which are much more affordable - then it is only natural for many people to opt for the burbs.

Well, this I agree with 100%.