What's Wrong with the Suburbs? (Atlanta, McRae: to rent, buy, theater)
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Setting aside the inherent downsides of suburban life anywhere (including Europe, in the few such areas there), Atlanta suburbs can offer a good deal, comparatively speaking. They are materially comfortable, practical - if you're close to some strip malls, and the weather is nice. For an average Joe family who simply could never afford to live in decent conditions in a traditional, large metropolis - Atlanta 'burbs can be an acceptable compromise.
"Pursuit of perfect happiness" is fine and dandy but being a realist has its benefits too.
Setting aside the inherent downsides of suburban life anywhere (including Europe, in the few such areas there), Atlanta suburbs can offer a good deal, comparatively speaking. They are materially comfortable, practical - if you're close to some strip malls, and the weather is nice. For an average Joe family who simply could never afford to live in decent conditions in a traditional, large metropolis - Atlanta 'burbs can be an acceptable compromise.
"Pursuit of perfect happiness" is fine and dandy but being a realist has its benefits too.
I will not argue with you on this one, Saintmarks. Of course it is not fair to compare a 160 year old modern city with a 2000 years old one. That being said, fair or unfair, the realities of modern cities remain what they are: they DO have less culture (even with liberal definitions of culture which remain highly controversial), fewer open public spaces, fewer venues, and overall, a reduced sense of place and community and an increased sense of isolation and alienation compared to older, established, historic ones that grew out organically over hundreds, if not thousands of years.
So if the comparison is not fair, how is it then fair for the newer city to act as if it is worth just as much in culture-related price, relative to its burbs, as the historic, 2000 years old one is?
If you ask me to pay an arm and a leg to live downtown London, I will understand where my arm and leg went; but if you ask me to pay almost the same arm and leg in Atlanta (maybe you'll leave me the pinky toe in this case), I will no longer understand. Since the new, modern city is way too similar to its suburbs - which are much more affordable - then it is only natural for many people to opt for the burbs. After all, look at how many millions live in the Atlanta burbs compared to the hundred thousands in the city.
London - vs. London burbs - huge difference.
Atlanta - vs. Atlanta burbs - not so much.
Regarding "attitude", I will get off topic a bit here, if you will: what you said reminds me of a study that I read about somewhere, long time ago, I don't remember where so don't ask me for link, which seemed to have found that when you compare American expats in Europe vs. European expats in the US, the former tend to adapt and learn to "appreciate the different" (as you put it) much better than the latter. On average, of course. This can mean several things, two of which could be:
1. Europeans are whiny, difficult, non-adaptable, rooted creatures compared to Americans who may be more light-hearted, easier-going, more flexible and adaptable (again, on average, as your wife clearly was not this prototype).
or
2. It might really be easier for human beings to tolerate less than prime material circumstances (as in tight, small, even somewhat uncomfortable dwellings) than to tolerate the loss of community feel, culture and human bonding (the spiritual) which often happens when someone moves from a traditional/historic/communitarian environment to a modern/private/isolated one.
This is, of course, going outside of the Atlanta OTP-ITP debate.
Not unrelated though.
You cannot paint with such a broad brush.
I know plenty of people that fit the "ugly American" prototype... had a friend visit us while there and got nasty with a waiter when he ordered Iced Tea. They don't even understand that such a beast exists. I had to tell them if you ask for a coke on ice, it would have like one cube in the glass. He put on the "I want what I want" attitude. Totally embarassing.
I know of many friends from our two years there that have visited us back in the states and love everything about the states, the lifestyle, the culture, know of three different ones that have relocated and NEVER want to go back.
Sorry, but I see much more of a difference in Atlanta (and other American sunbelt cities) suburbs to the central city than I did London burbs to the city. First, because the WHOLE of it was different, I didn't see the internal differences that a local would.
But after living there two years, I got a deeper look than the average tourist would. Off of the top of my head... London is dense in the core AND in the burbs. But it doesn't have the huge mass of towers that the typical American city does, neither does it have huge leafy suburban developments on huge lots to the extent an American city does. London burbs don't have the mall/strip mall development in the burbs ether.... most suburban areas still have the majority of their retail surrounded on the High Street. For instance, Kingston on Thames, the closest large retail center to us had Bentalls, Debenhams, marks and Spencers (the type of stores that would anchor an American mall) still in the city center. The shops in between were similar to the stuff in an American mall, but it was all in the original urban "downtown" style of development, street front, pedestrian oriented, historic facades but very modern interiors. This could be said of Walton on Thames, Guilford, Woking.... any of the surrounding "suburbs" to us in our corner of Surrey.
So, even after living there two years I don't see the big differences you see city to suburb. From my viewpoint, would say American cities and burbs are far more different.
I said, on average. Unless you want to keep everything at the atomized, separate individual level, some kind of brush will be necessary and it WILL give you a general idea. You know they say that generalizations are nothing but distortions of the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
I know plenty of people that fit the "ugly American" prototype... had a friend visit us while there and got nasty with a waiter when he ordered Iced Tea. They don't even understand that such a beast exists. I had to tell them if you ask for a coke on ice, it would have like one cube in the glass. He put on the "I want what I want" attitude. Totally embarassing.
Well...this is the type of "legend" that stands out a bit more than it should. In my experience, Americans who travel through Europe, and even more so, American expats, are NOT exactly the "ugly" prototype who will fuss over not finding ice tea. Such Americans tend to be quite well-informed and tend to know what Europe's downsides are: from not being able to find REALLY cold beer to resigning yourself to crammed, small spaces - Americans tend to enter their cross-cultural experience relatively well prepared.
By contrast, I have met tons of Europeans or immigrants from other countries who came to the US believing that their experience here will be largely like what they had at home, particularly in terms of social interaction, only with a much higher standard of MATERIAL living: lots of space, nice houses with yards, big cars, pools, awesome roads and a shower of parking spaces...the "good livin'" that the entire world knows America has.
After a few years of living here and learning that the US is largely a modern, very individualistic, very competitive, very fast-paced and quite atomized country - they start feeling the hard-to-anticipate losses in spiritual well-being, compared to what they had at home. Differences in material standard of living are easy to understand from a distance. Spiritual/psychological differences are much harder to anticipate, process and understand ahead of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
I know of many friends from our two years there that have visited us back in the states and love everything about the states, the lifestyle, the culture, know of three different ones that have relocated and NEVER want to go back.
Of course - there will always be some people who do clearly better exactly where they thought the grass was greener. For some it just turns out the grass REALLY WAS greener - to them; but I can tell you that for every such expat experience, there are many who simply have to adapt to whatever choice they made for job-related purposes, whether they like it or not; in the end - job is king and dictates where people will be. Moving back and forth cross-nationally after trying to make a life in a new place for a few years is not exactly the piece of cake it sounds to be. Many people go through the cross-national experience and then they learn to just deal with the perceived negatives of the new place or even convince themselves that those are not really "negatives", so they internalize the new values because not doing so can result in a lot of frustration. Some can temper with their authentic identities easier than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Sorry, but I see much more of a difference in Atlanta (and other American sunbelt cities) suburbs to the central city than I did London burbs to the city. First, because the WHOLE of it was different, I didn't see the internal differences that a local would. But after living there two years, I got a deeper look than the average tourist would. Off of the top of my head... London is dense in the core AND in the burbs.
Europe is dense everywhere, of course. Just like America is less dense everywhere, even in the city (save the few very big metropolitan areas)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
But it doesn't have the huge mass of towers that the typical American city does, neither does it have huge leafy suburban developments on huge lots to the extent an American city does. London burbs don't have the mall/strip mall development in the burbs ether.... most suburban areas still have the majority of their retail surrounded on the High Street. For instance, Kingston on Thames, the closest large retail center to us had Bentalls, Debenhams, marks and Spencers (the type of stores that would anchor an American mall) still in the city center. The shops in between were similar to the stuff in an American mall, but it was all in the original urban "downtown" style of development, street front, pedestrian oriented, historic facades but very modern interiors. This could be said of Walton on Thames, Guilford, Woking.... any of the surrounding "suburbs" to us in our corner of Surrey.
Sure, I can see these correlations. When I mentioned city-burb differences, however, we were talking about the premium that city people are generally willing to pay to be in the middle of urban culture (which "culture" can include anything from arts of all sorts, to street cafes, to public transport, monuments, architecture, history, liveliness, festivals, fashion parades, sports competitions, large parks with attractions, and just plain fellow humans walking and interacting all over). It is in this respect that the European large city can differ dramatically from the relatively quiet, small European small town/village (as Europe has few suburbs in the American sense).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
So, even after living there two years I don't see the big differences you see city to suburb. From my viewpoint, would say American cities and burbs are far more different.
I would continue to strongly disagree on this one. If you had spent even more time in Europe, including on the continent, you would have noticed there is a very sharp cultural divide between "city people" and the "non-city people", which many Europeans associate with "country". The two cultures are dramatically different, much more so than the cultural divide between American city dwellers and American suburbanites.
This is very evident on the continent and slightly less so in England.
It should not feel so close to suburban life for the price it is asking of you.
"Should not"? Why is it up to you what should and should not be? Atlanta is what it is, and apparently many millions of people seem to enjoy it and more are moving here constantly from the cities that are the way it "should" be. Ironic.
"Should not"? Why is it up to you what should and should not be? Atlanta is what it is, and apparently many millions of people seem to enjoy it and more are moving here constantly from the cities that are the way it "should" be. Ironic.
Many "millions of people" do not enjoy Atlanta.
Many millions of people enjoy (and some just settle for) the SUBURBS of Atlanta; and for all those transplants from cities that are "the way they should be", I can show you masses of individuals who choose to STAY in the aforementioned cities, at a premium - exactly because they are the way most people know a city SHOULD be.
Moreover, the people you point to, that are moving into the Atlanta area from HCOL parts of the country, are mostly drawn to the Atlanta suburbs, not to the metro area. Many make such a choice because they are simply priced out of the large metro areas (with cities the way they "should be"), not because they would still choose to move here if they had tons of money to live well in the classic city.
Many "millions of people" do not enjoy Atlanta.
Many millions of people enjoy (and some just settle for) the SUBURBS of Atlanta; and for all those transplants from cities that are "the way they should be", I can show you masses of individuals who choose to STAY in the aforementioned cities, at a premium - exactly because they are the way most people know a city SHOULD be.
Moreover, the people you point to, that are moving into the Atlanta area from HCOL parts of the country, are mostly drawn to the Atlanta suburbs, not to the metro area. Many make such a choice because they are simply priced out of the large metro areas (with cities the way they "should be"), not because they would still choose to move here if they had tons of money to live well in the classic city.
I do not speak. The market does.
syracusa does make some good points in this thread.
I have always wondered -- since NYC is among the most successful real estate stories in the world -- you would think more people (at least those with a real estate point of view) would want to emulate that.
syracusa does make some good points in this thread.
I have always wondered -- since NYC is among the most successful real estate stories in the world -- you would think more people (at least those with a real estate point of view) would want to emulate that.
Geography plays into this. You can't emulate an ocean, a large deep water harbor, an island (and neighboring islands) at the confluence of a major river and other bays and bodies of water in the middle of the piedmont. Land doesn't spread out without geographical hindrances 360 degrees from NY. Because of this premium on land, especially on Manhattan, it is unique from most American cities.
Atlanta is one of the few cities in the county where land is in abundance any direction you go from the city. No mountains or oceans or deserts or swamps to hem the city in. Dallas is one of the only other cities in the country with a similar setting. Both have spread outward because land is abundant.... and cheap.
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to resigning yourself to crammed, small spaces - Americans tend to enter their cross-cultural experience relatively well prepared.
