MARTA begins alternatives analysis for 400 corridor (Atlanta, Roswell: taxes, living in, bus)

[cqholt]

market heavily the fact that they would pretty much be the most accessible offices on 400 for every mode of transit.

Great marketing idea. North Springs station could be a transit village with apartments, condos and retail all close to the station.

[brownhornet]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Your comparing apples and oranges here. Manhattan is New York's Downtown while the 400 corridor is suburbia at it's finest. What will be needed there will be a solution to relieve commuter traffic since the studied area is far too large for concentrated mass transit. We already have a subway in Downtown Atlanta and direct train access to Airport (something you can't easily do from Manhattan to either of the NYC airports), so the comparison you made is pretty much irrelevant.

It could be the Bronx, Brooklyn, Long Island or any of the other buroughs and the comparison would still be the same. I think its pretty much a given that you can go anywhere in NYC without a car.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by brownhornet

It could be the Bronx, Brooklyn, Long Island or any of the other buroughs and the comparison would still be the same. I think its pretty much a given that you can go anywhere in NYC without a car.

It's also true that New Yorkers don't mind riding the bus. So they are able to leverage the very extensive subway system into even greater transit penetration.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

yes that is very true. i think even the clifton corridor, which mostly runs along an existing CSX railbed, was estimated somewhere around $75 million a mile.

Ummm.... actually.....


They have detailed and publicly listed these figures and they are well above $75million/mile.

It is also why we have to compare how much money can be used over time and how it can be spent for various projects.

The details of the Clifton corridor

HRT: 4.7 miles only @ $282.7 million/mile (annual operating/Maintenance cost: $28 million)
LRT: 8.3 miles @ $118.7 million/mile (annual O/M costs: $15.3 million)

The good news is the north corridor is likely to be a tad bit cheaper for both technologies, because the right of way acquisition (and availability) is much cheaper than places closer matured neighborhoods. More importantly.. the ROW costs is actually low in compared to capital costs, but it provides for more flexibility in engineering a cheaper build. Nonetheless... it will be near the same ballpark fiugure.


My problem with that I see happening is simply this. It is too easy to ignore Concept 3.

The problem is we can't build a fully built out system all at once. Even if we put all our will and muscle behind it the sheer cost will make it a 30 year endeavor.

This means we will have to build it piece by piece. The problem with building piece by piece is the first few pieces will always seem more convenient to be extensions of an existing technology. People have already spotted out the obvious. Without other projects built and given existing conditions a HRT extension w/o transfers makes sense.

However, if we go the LRT route... we have the money to go much further and start moving towards a built out system. In the long run we can build seamless routes between North Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb, and provide better coverage to the Perimeter area with LRT (designed to mostly have its own right of way; therefore nearly as fast as HRT).

Now that doesn't make any way to be the one single right way to go, but we have to be honest with ourselves to when analyzing the tradeoffs, as well as, considering the long-term planning of things that will take longer to happen.


One working idea I have in mind... but don't know if I really endorse is perhaps we should consider starting these new corridors with right of way acquisition for two tracks (for future service), but only build one LRT track over a much longer distance.

The reason is simply the first uses when first built are to be a commuting alternative to the freeways in the corridor. We can then put our efforts into providing one-way express service that goes further at less cost and in-between low-frequency local service in between and during off hours.

The pros are that we can do more to provide service given the current suburban build of the areas. The cons are we would delay the encouragement of some transit oriented development in the corridor. Either way, the long-term strategy would be to have a fully operation two-track, high frequency service. But... it might allow us to go much further and help out existing conditions/travel patterns in the short-term.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

The reason is simply the first uses when first built are to be a commuting alternative to the freeways in the corridor. We can then put our efforts into providing one-way express service that goes further at less cost and in-between low-frequency local service in between and during off hours.

The pros are that we can do more to provide service given the current suburban build of the areas. The cons are we would delay the encouragement of some transit oriented development in the corridor. Either way, the long-term strategy would be to have a fully operation two-track, high frequency service. But... it might allow us to go much further and help out existing conditions/travel patterns in the short-term.

i don't know about light rail being express since it's slower, but they do have express trains in NYC, which is one thing we don't have here. they have trains that stop at only major stations and can run through the whole line twice as fast. here, because we only have two tracks and no bypass tracks, one train can slow down the whole system and every train has to stop at every station. i don't know how much it would cost to put bypass tracks on existing rails but it's definitely a fantastic idea for new projects.

[earthlyfather]

I'd held back commenting further when waronxmas came back so strong about the apples and oranges. I did not want to be argumentative. But, my comment was more general in nature, having used both systems enough to understand the 'overall' difference.

BTW, re. the bus: we rode the bus in from LGA to GST, then walked three blocks to our hotel. Is this great or what?

Originally Posted by arjay57

It's also true that New Yorkers don't mind riding the bus. So they are able to leverage the very extensive subway system into even greater transit penetration.

[brownhornet]

Originally Posted by earthlyfather

I'd held back commenting further when waronxmas came back so strong about the apples and oranges. I did not want to be argumentative. But, my comment was more general in nature, having used both systems enough to understand the 'overall' difference.

BTW, re. the bus: we rode the bus in from LGA to GST, then walked three blocks to our hotel. Is this great or what?

Trust me I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way when I was living in DC how convenient it was not to have to drive everywhere you went. I didn't even take my car and never had an issue getting where I needed to go because the Metro was so extensive. Im guessing they didn't have to deal with certain counties afraid of "other elements" being brought in by the Metro like folks were here. Had a train station one block from me and could go anywhere from the mall to University of Maryland, Georgetown or Arlington without even getting on a bus. Once you live in a city like DC or NYC or even visit there and get used to the transit and then come back here, it seems like a joke.

[readyset]

Originally Posted by brownhornet

Trust me I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way when I was living in DC how convenient it was not to have to drive everywhere you went. I didn't even take my car and never had an issue getting where I needed to go because the Metro was so extensive. Im guessing they didn't have to deal with certain counties afraid of "other elements" being brought in by the Metro like folks were here. Had a train station one block from me and could go anywhere from the mall to University of Maryland, Georgetown or Arlington without even getting on a bus. Once you live in a city like DC or NYC or even visit there and get used to the transit and then come back here, it seems like a joke.

I just don't get it. The people constantly saying how much better D.C.s Metro rail is compared to Atlanta's Marta rail have you been smoking something? The way people talk one would think its like comparing a bullet train to a rapid bus transit but it couldn't be further from the truth.

Truth is D.C. and Atlanta's mass rail systems are VERY similar, far more similar than D.C. to new yorks. I would even say considering the circumstances Atlanta's is a better (cars are certainly neater and even have TVs).

People always talk about coverage, but while Atlanta's goes to less places it is not so far behind D.C. They both have their trade offs. For example Metro doesn't take you to Dulles airport. Perimeter area is the equivalent to Tysons Corner but Perimeter is already served by four stations while Tysons Corner does not have any yet.

A Heavy rail line through Cobb and Gwinett are really the only short comings for MARTA and thats not its fault. DeKalb county is equivalent to Prince George's County and only one Metro station goes past the beltway in Prince George's County.

If the Clifton corridor line is built as HRT and the Beltline is rail. I think the D.C. and Atlanta areas will be almost equal. They will certainly be on the same footing with their street car system and Atlanta's will go through much more important areas. I really just wish an HRT line would go through cobb county that seems to be a great priority that would put it on equal footing with Montgomery County or Fairfax County (which is about to finish a portion of its Metro extension)

[cqholt]

I really just wish an HRT line would go through cobb county

Also, extend the Gold Line in Gwinnett County. I think we should extend the current HRT technology as much as possible. It is more expensive, but I think the Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett lines would get lots of use and warrant HRT for the speed. The Perimeter line should be LRT.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Also, extend the Gold Line in Gwinnett County. I think we should extend the current HRT technology as much as possible. It is more expensive, but I think the Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett lines would get lots of use and warrant HRT for the speed. The Perimeter line should be LRT.

I completely agree. I would be in favor of extending HRT up into Cobb and extending the Yellow Line up into Gwinnett County before I were to extend MARTA up 400.

The commuters on 400 have a nice park and ride stop to hop on MARTA. The commuters on I-85 and I-75 don't have this option. Give these potential riders the option before catering to those who chose to live/work 15 miles outside the perimeter in Alpharetta. Extend the Gold line 5-7 miles up I-85 (eventually going up to near 316. Create a line up to I-75/Delk Road paralleling I-75 (with plans to eventually extend up toward Kennesaw. I'd like to do more, but gotta think about the $$$.