State of Alaska supports Pebble... (Metlakatla, Copper Center: houses, incomes, quality of life)
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All this is in the same context that people claim electric cars will save the planet... The fact that they plug the car into the wall and the power charges the car with "clean" energy is false. You follow the power grid and you come to a big power plant run on either coal, nuclear or gas. Just because they can't see the source of energy, doesn't mean it is perfect either, but by the standards of even 50 years ago, it is very clean!
When the anti-Pebble first were ranting about the mine being at the headwaters of the Bristol Bay waters, they changed their tune when the mines in the Copper River district were brought up and that river has the highest priced fish today. They now claim that the Kennicott mines were up in the mountains away from the rivers, which of course is somewhat true, but that is where the waters flow from into the "Copper River", funny it was named after the mineral they mined!
Now the anti-Pebble folks claim that the mine is going to be placed on a salmon stream, instead of the entire Bristol Bay water shed. Nobody knows for sure as of yet where the mine will start at, so they are just guessing to scare the begeeze out of people yelling fire!
You have to quit looking at the wall plugin as the entire issue, there is an entire industry that supports the 110 volts that come out of it.
Honesty doesn't seem to be the Anti-Pebble folks strong suite and Sheeple see to believe what they say as fact. Here is another little Oddity they don't tell you, there was massive amount of gold mining done on the Yukon, Kusko and other rivers that dumped into Bristol Bay 80+ years dumping tons of toxic byproducts into the water, during that entire time Bristol Bay still pumped record amounts of Salmon out into the World market. Now we may have s mine that will be highly regulated and fined should the leak anything.
I don't see that as an issue, just jobs for the people in Bristol Bay, and support jobs for the mine all over that area as well. When mining or any other mineral extraction is done responsibly, I see that as an asset verses a disaster.
It would not employ many Alaskans, only around 100. You can open up a grocery store and employ as many people. However, Pebble is expected to generate $2 billion in revenues per year. But our royalty tax rate for the resources collected from mining is not nearly the same as the royalty tax rate for oil resources. ACES places a 25% royalty tax on the oil industry, but mines that produce a net revenue of more than $100,000 are only charged a 7% royalty tax. Which would mean that the State's share would only be around $140 million per year.
Personally, I think ACES should be repealed and the oil royalty tax should be reduced to 20%, where it was prior to 2007. The mining license tax should be increased to 10% for mines that produce more than $100,000 in net revenues.
Setting that aside, I agree with you about mining our natural resources, But not at the expense of employment or other resources. If Pebble can be operated safely without causing any serious harm or lasting damage to the environment, then I am all for the project. However, if there is a possibility that it will put 75% of the residents of Bristol Bay out of work because Pebble has decimated the salmon industry in that area, then I would be opposed to Pebble.
Right now, there is not enough information to make a determination either way. They have not even submitted a request for a State permit yet, so we have no idea of where Pebble will be actually located or the extent of the mine.
At the very least I would want to read the Contingency Plan they are required to submit to ADEC before they can begin operations. If something goes wrong, that document will explain how the State and Pebble will deal with the problem.
A final permitting decision on the Pebble Project is unlikely prior to 2012. If the project is ultimately permitted, construction of mine facilities is likely to take two to three years, require a capital investment of between $3-4 billion and create 2,000 full-time direct jobs. Mine operations are likely to continue for 50-80 years, create hundreds of millions of dollars in annual operating expenditures, and generate tens of millions of dollars in annual tax payments to government.
A final permitting decision on the Pebble Project is unlikely prior to 2012. If the project is ultimately permitted, construction of mine facilities is likely to take two to three years, require a capital investment of between $3-4 billion and create 2,000 full-time direct jobs. Mine operations are likely to continue for 50-80 years, create hundreds of millions of dollars in annual operating expenditures, and generate tens of millions of dollars in annual tax payments to government.
Even Pebble Partnership, Inc. is not making such ludicrous claims. They are claiming that the 2,000 jobs will only occur during the construction phase and maybe half that afterwards, and the life span of the mine is between 30 and 60 years.
It would appear your source is biased in the opposite direction. They want the mine, at any cost, and they are willing to make false claims to get it. Not that I trust the Pebble Partnership website either. They have an obvious interest in inflating their numbers as well, and your numbers from the Resource Development Council is inflated way beyond what Pebble even claims.
Even Pebble Partnership, Inc. is not making such ludicrous claims. They are claiming that the 2,000 jobs will only occur during the construction phase and maybe half that afterwords, and the life span of the mine is between 30 and 60 years.
It would appear your source is biased in the opposite direction. They want the mine, at any cost, and they are willing to make false claims to get it. Not that I trust the Pebble Partnership website either. They have an obvious interest in inflating their numbers as well, and your numbers from the Resource Development Council is inflated way beyond what Pebble even claims.
Well if it is like any other large production mine, they will in fact hire hundreds of people triple that during the construction phase, maybe even more.
But for every one person they hire, there will be three to four spin off jobs in support of their operation, subcontractors, suppliers and so forth.
Fort Knox will be a small mine compared to Pebble, but even at that, Fort Knox employees about five hundred full time workers at an average salary of about $66,000.00 a year. I would figure that Pebble will employ even more.
Above Average Wages
Fort Knox employees receive an average wage of $66,297, he noted, considerably higher than the borough's average salary of $37,804. Mine employees are among the highest paid in Fairbanks, Hughes said.
The more than 500 full-time employees log about 1 million man-hours per year. Fort Knox has achieved other noteworthy safety milestones in the past, including working 1 million man-hours without a lost-time incident in 1999, 2001, 2004, 2006, and in 2008. The mine passed the 2 million man-hours worked without a lost time incident for the first time ever in 2009
Needless to say, there is a lot of Fort Knox spin off jobs in the Fairbanks area that support the gold mine, and I figure that Pebble would be no different for the Bristol Bay area. Fishing may support 75% of the town, but for how long, a few months? Most of the permit holders are from out of state and are gone as soon as the fishing is over and take their money with them... At least those that work for Pebble will have year round work.
It will be interesting to see how their permitting process turns out when it is submitted. I think the Anti-Pebble crowd are shooting their loads way too early for the intensity that they are doing, people are getting tired of the cry of "Wolf" and the Pebble people have time to show where they are in fact doing it right.
Time will tell.... But I think everyone comes out ahead when it is all said and done, except those claiming the sky is falling, and indeed it may be... on themselves.
Last edited by starlite9; 08-11-2011 at 06:05 PM..
Other things aside (I don't really know much about the rest), Fort Knox pays a lot of property tax to the North Star Borough, and a lot of the UAF mining graduates end-up working for them.
What happens with salmon when they are exposed to even minuscule amounts of copper (as in a couple of parts per billion, I believe) is that they lose their ability to smell, and that's part of how they find they way home to their spawning streams, how they find mates, and how they know when one of their predators is nearby.
Some of the largest copper mining in Alaska took place on the Copper Valley, all around the Copper River. Back then there weren't any environmental rules like we have nowadays. Also, there is a lot of copper in its natural state along the Copper River.
If the salmon in the Copper River (and tributaries) have suffered any harm is hard to tell, but it could also be because back then such data collection was not the norm (?).
Some of the largest copper mining in Alaska took place on the Copper Valley, all around the Copper River. Back then there weren't any environmental rules like we have nowadays. Also, there is a lot of copper in its natural state along the Copper River.
If the salmon in the Copper River (and tributaries) have suffered any harm is hard to tell, but it could also be because back then such data collection was not the norm (?).
There's scientific evidence that salmon can develop a "tolerance" to the negative effects of copper provided it's introduced into their ecosystems very gradually, which is probably why it hasn't effected the Copper River runs. Even before any mining began, those runs could already have built up a tolerance to it because of the extreme abundance of it in the area.
Kennicot also extracted high grade ore, from what I understand is done in a less environmentally abusive manner than the open pit mining that would be in play at the Pebble project.
The concern with the Pebble project hinges a lot on it's very size and what could potentially occur due to an act of Nature or error on the part of the humans involved.
Some reading for you on the effects of copper on salmon provided you are not too deeply into your cup of wine as yet:
There's scientific evidence that salmon can develop a "tolerance" to the negative effects of copper provided it's introduced into their ecosystems very gradually, which is probably why it hasn't effected the Copper River runs. Copper mining there started out fairly small. Even before any mining began, those runs could already have built up a tolerance to it because of the extreme abundance of it in the area.
The concern with the Pebble project hinges a lot on it's very size and what could potentially occur due to an act of Nature or error on the part of the humans involved.
Some reading for you on the effects of copper on salmon provided you are not too deeply into your cup of wine as yet:
I will have a cup of wine with dinner in a few minutes, like I always do. But see, if you take your time to read what I posted you will notice that I didn't choose one side nor the other. I just mentioned what happened years ago in a region of Alaska that was named "Copper Valley" for a reason. Besides, you nor I know what has happened to the salmon in the Copper and its tributaries. All I can tell you is that one can find copper with a metal detector in a lot of places around Copper Center, and down the road along the Copper River leading to Healy Creek.
I will have a cup of wine with dinner in a few minutes, like I always do. But see, if you take your time to read what I posted you will notice that I didn't choose one side nor the other. I just mentioned what happened years ago in a region of Alaska that was named "Copper Valley" for a reason. Besides, you nor I know what has happened to the salmon in the Copper and its tributaries. All I can tell you is that one can find copper with a metal detector in a lot of places around Copper Center, and down the road along the Copper River leading to Healy Creek.
Again, the type of mining done at Kennicot was different from the open pit mining they want to do at Pebble. Most of the copper there was found as nuggets. Again, salmon have been shown to have the capacity to develop a tolerance for copper provided it's a gradual process.
I have not accused you of taking "one side or another"; merely attempted to explain to your addled brain why comparing the two might not be such a valid parallel. This article in the Arctic Sounder explains some of the differences between the various mining enterprises in Alaska:
Star, while it's the truth that a good percentage of the Bristol Bay permit holders are residents of other states---primarily Washington---the fishing/seafood industry has such long and close ties to Washington that it's not really comparable to the Outside interests involved in Pebble. As far as jobs...well, I like to think that the jobs we provide to both local people and temporary visitors are of value to them. Our particular place can only support a few family wage year round type of incomes, but the students and housewives we hire for the summer season don't want to work year round anyway.
Hell, I don't want to work year round. Can't think of anything more dreadful.
Last edited by Metlakatla; 08-16-2011 at 09:41 PM..
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