Inslee announces he won't seek reelection in 2024 (Republic: buy, law school)

[kavm]

Originally Posted by kavm

…for all the talk of libertarianism, I see the Republicans trying to control women's decisions about their body, sexuality, the right to end own life and so on.
…

Without looking to get much more in the back and forth on this, my point was the hypocrisy of the so called libertarianism and Republicans. The list of topics I stated above are simply decisions about a person’s own body - the same people who claim to be for smaller role of the Government are the biggest advocates of regulating a person’s decisions about their own body.

I don’t expect or care to agree with others the right and wrong of my personal thinking on these topics. I was simply highlighting the hypocrisy and inconsistent set of beliefs that are evident.

[PS90]

Originally Posted by kavm

Without looking to get much more in the back and forth on this, my point was the hypocrisy of the so called libertarianism and Republicans. The list of topics I stated above are simply decisions about a person’s own body - the same people who claim to be for smaller role of the Government are the biggest advocates of regulating a person’s decisions about their own body.

I don’t expect or care to agree with others the right and wrong of my personal thinking on these topics. I was simply highlighting the hypocrisy and inconsistent set of beliefs that are evident.

Yup. Sounds about right. In the social media era, everyone wants to make sure everyone else knows what their opinion is, but nobody wants to listen to anyone else.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by PS90

Yup. Sounds about right. In the social media era, everyone wants to make sure everyone else knows what their opinion is, but nobody wants to listen to anyone else.

Pot calling the kettle black

[Arcos]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

The problems lies with extremes on both sides of the majority of these hot button issues. Regarding the science of the 70s and the medical knowledge of children in the womb, a lot more is known today than was then with 3D imaging, ultrasound along with medical technology which has actually been used to keep premature children alive to full health. A lot has happened in the last 50 years. So, a review of the medical ethics and efficacy of abortion based upon was is considered life in the womb vs. an unfeeling, ball of fleshy mass is a good thing. What if they got wrong 50 years ago based upon limited medical knowledge? Stranger things have happened.

There's an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal about this topic called "The Obsolete Science Behind Roe v. Wade - My youngest patients are unborn babies, and today’s ultrasounds show they are fully alive and human."

Let's just think hypothetically if that child in the womb is actually fully alive and human vs. a ball of flesh. Shouldn't we as a society at least take into account what medical science now reveals vs. what we didn't know back then? The old thinking was it was just like a cyst in the women's body. Therefore, don't tell her what to do with it. Yet once born, if a mother were to harm her child in any way, it would be considered child abuse which everyone agrees upon. So, I think things are different now. And yet both sides seem unwilling to consider the latest science along with implications of the mother's life if in jeopardy and so forth. So, there are legitimate cases for abortions under certain situations as well.

The same extremes happened with the pandemic where people would rather shoot someone than wear a mask when asked to do if entering a public place. They were outraged anyone would dare infringe upon their personal freedoms even if those clearly had impacts upon others around them. They simply didn't give a damn since it was their body and choice to do with whatever the hell they pleased including infecting others. Medical workers quit their jobs and careers rather than take a vaccine shot and so on. Then all the conspiracy theorists went absolutely crazy with all kinds of urban legends and misinformation. So, we had the two extremes again. My sister in-law still believes Bill Gates invented the vaccine to place nanobots in everyone's' brains to read their minds. She sent me countless blogs on the conspiracies. And on and on the craziness goes. lol

Derek

As a liberal Democrat, I’d be fine with the number of weeks before an abortion is no longer legal under normal circumstances being adjusted based on scientific advances. Roe vs Wade could have been modified by that one parameter and it would have been defensible logic.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by Arcos

As a liberal Democrat, I’d be fine with the number of weeks before an abortion is no longer legal under normal circumstances being adjusted based on scientific advances. Roe vs Wade could have been modified by that one parameter and it would have been defensible logic.

What you are referring to is central to the problem in today's politics. It's the Lost Art of Win Win Negotiations in the US. Instead, both sides would rather yell at each other demanding their way or the highway in Congress, on Twitter, etc...

We need to get back to having sane discourses where real negotiation and agreements can be reached by both parties even if not 100% what one extreme wants vs. the other. The crazy part is, congress is made up of mostly attorneys who are supposedly taught in law school how to negotiate. Maybe that is being glossed over in favor of 'winning' an argument. Negotiation has mostly gone out the window in polarized gov't with a desire for an all or nothing approach. The climate is both foolish and a disservice to the people they are elected to serve. Things of importance rarely get voted on in a well crafted bipartisan manner anymore. We need to get back to that in WA state as well. Otherwise, we'll live on the fringes of the extremes without taking into consideration the full scope of an issue affecting all vs. one side's pet agenda - those things which sound so good on a twitter or a shock jock talk show.

Getting to win-win: Negotiation in politics

Derek

[PS90]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

What you are referring to is central to the problem in today's politics. It's the Lost Art of Win Win Negotiations in the US. Instead, both sides would rather yell at each other demanding their way or the highway in Congress, on Twitter, etc...

We need to get back to having sane discourses where real negotiation and agreements can be reached by both parties even if not 100% what one extreme wants vs. the other. The crazy part is, congress is made up of mostly attorneys who are supposedly taught in law school how to negotiate. Maybe that is being glossed over in favor of 'winning' an argument. Negotiation has mostly gone out the window in polarized gov't with a desire for an all or nothing approach. The climate is both foolish and a disservice to the people they are elected to serve. Things of importance rarely get voted on in a well crafted bipartisan manner anymore. We need to get back to that in WA state as well. Otherwise, we'll live on the fringes of the extremes without taking into consideration the full scope of an issue affecting all vs. one side's pet agenda - those things which sound so good on a twitter or a shock jock talk show.

Getting to win-win: Negotiation in politics

Derek

Again, I agree. The problem is the extremists on each side, i.e. the Trumps and the AOCs of the world, get the all the media attention. The more radical they are, the more people talk about them. There's no up-side to meeting in the middle.

[509]

Originally Posted by kavm

Without looking to get much more in the back and forth on this, my point was the hypocrisy of the so called libertarianism and Republicans. The list of topics I stated above are simply decisions about a person’s own body - the same people who claim to be for smaller role of the Government are the biggest advocates of regulating a person’s decisions about their own body.

I don’t expect or care to agree with others the right and wrong of my personal thinking on these topics. I was simply highlighting the hypocrisy and inconsistent set of beliefs that are evident.

So the "body" inside your "body" has no rights??

As somebody with a biology background, life begins at conception.

I understand that you want to control decisions about your body. As a male, so do I, but the medical community and government thinks otherwise.

Don't get pregnant. I do support FREE contraception for anybody that wants it and birth control pills as a over the counter product.

Nobody needs to get pregnant these days. Think ahead.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by 509

So the "body" inside your "body" has no rights??

As somebody with a biology background, life begins at conception.

I understand that you want to control decisions about your body. As a male, so do I, but the medical community and government thinks otherwise.

Don't get pregnant. I do support FREE contraception for anybody that wants it and birth control pills as a over the counter product.

Nobody needs to get pregnant these days. Think ahead.

May be work on your reading comprehension a bit before responding... As for the government thinking otherwise, the same folks who support the so-called government's (more like Republican) 'thinking' on this were very opposed to the government mandating Covid vaccination. And, immunization had a public health implication and, therefore, a legitimate public health implication.

[509]

Originally Posted by kavm

May be work on your reading comprehension a bit before responding... As for the government thinking otherwise, the same folks who support the so-called government's (more like Republican) 'thinking' on this were very opposed to the government mandating Covid vaccination. And, immunization had a public health implication and, therefore, a legitimate public health implication.

English is not my first language, so I might miss some of the fine points. What did I miss??

Mandating a vaccination is similar to an abortion?? You can kill yourself, by refusing a vaccination. I am fine with that.

Why should the government mandate a vaccination in a pandemic for adults???

BTW, I did get mine. At least the first two, passed on the third, on my Dr.'s recommendation.

BUT, abortion is a "body" within a "body" and it is "inconvenient" for the woman. Doesn't the "body" within a "body" have any rights to life??

We had a "fetal demise" at 20 weeks due to genetics. The hospital asked us what we wanted to do. Have them throw it in the garbage, send it to a funeral home for burial in a religious ceremony, or just have it cremated and the ashes given to us?

Abortion is tough, really tough.

We need to recognize that.

[kavm]

Nothing tough about simple logic. What you or anyone else thinks about another person’s decisions about their own body is and should be irrelevant. I don’t need a lesson in biology or whatever you are trying to impart.

In any case, my point was broader than abortion. There is right to die, right to sexuality, and so on. As far as I see, an individual has an inalienable rights to decisions about their own body, and there needs to be to be a very high threshold public interest in regulating them. Others don’t really have a logical standing in the individuals decisions about their body’s. What is going on is politically driven strong-arming of the population.

Someone thinks abortion is wrong, don’t have one. Someone thinks suicide in all situations (including in situations with terminal or debilitating disease) is wrong, don’t commit suicide. Someone thinks homosexuality (or whatever other sexuality choice) is wrong, don’t take that road. What they don’t have a right to is to tell others that what their choices can be.