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I swear this project conjures up more debate than the Iraq war!
I have one question: Does anyone know if any future additions to the existing Destiny USA footprint (including the recent expansion) be included in the 30 year tax exemption or will it have to pay property taxes? I am not talking about the area from Hiawatha Blvd to Bear Street included in the now defunct agreement, just the area surrounding existing structure.
Haven't heard anything about that. Without knowing anything specific about the language of the agreement, I can't say (though I hope not).
If I were to hazard a guess, though, I doubt that Pyramid will invest any more money than it has in the property. Any significant future expansion would put a strain on parking, and it's unlikely that Pyramid wants to build any structured parking on the site - they'd need some pretty impression leases (of the destination retail or entertainment) in hand to justify that investment. And that's assuming there's demand for more space (also not terribly likely).
It looks like Pyramid has the mall it wants, surrounded by the neighborhood it wants. It'll be interesting to see how the city treats it and how private developers respond to it.
Haven't heard anything about that. Without knowing anything specific about the language of the agreement, I can't say (though I hope not).
If I were to hazard a guess, though, I doubt that Pyramid will invest any more money than it has in the property. Any significant future expansion would put a strain on parking, and it's unlikely that Pyramid wants to build any structured parking on the site - they'd need some pretty impression leases (of the destination retail or entertainment) in hand to justify that investment. And that's assuming there's demand for more space (also not terribly likely).
It looks like Pyramid has the mall it wants, surrounded by the neighborhood it wants. It'll be interesting to see how the city treats it and how private developers respond to it.
Thanks CP, I am assuming that any expansion within the area around the current foot print would be included in the existing tax agreement. You raise a good issue though, is the parking area across Hiawatha included in the original agreement. He could expand the current footprint and use the space across the street for parking (maybe structured parking). I hope not, I think that space eventually needs to be revisited and zoned compatible with that of Franklin Square and COR's proposal or something eclectic that would transition. I think Congel could build some structured parking under a proposed hotel without jeopardizing parking needs. I am not around the area enough to make an evaluation.
I have my problems with the way Congel handled Destiny, but this guy has no reason to be demonized to the extent that he has. He is no better or worse than any other developer in CNY or elsewhere. I think he has accomplished alot and laid the foundation for the redevelopment of the "water front" area from Carousel Center (Destiny USA) to Franklin Square. I totally support the COR development and think the area surrounding the inner-harbor should be revisited, but lets give this guy a little credit. I think there is a strong argument to be made that if not for Congel back in the 1980's, there would not be a Franklin Square as we know. It is certainly better than a scrap yard, oil tanks, brownfields, etc.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 06-14-2012 at 11:35 AM..
He got the ball rolling and inspired people as to what things could be like. He gets credit for that. Most of what people are mad about is because the investigations done by the Post Standard. If they reported every developer under the same microscope, nothing would happen in this city. I am sure a lot of the information fead to the paper comes from the City. They like to point the finger at what other people are doing rather than take responsibility for what they are failing to do. The SRC arena is a perfect example. SRC was getting all of the business and the OnCenter wasn't. They couldn't book the venue, so they find reasons to badmouth SRC in hopes that people would default back to the OnCenter. I know there are many more details and public money involved, but that was just a ploy to find out what the SRC was doing right and the City ws doing wronf with their event center.
He got the ball rolling and inspired people as to what things could be like. He gets credit for that. Most of what people are mad about is because the investigations done by the Post Standard. If they reported every developer under the same microscope, nothing would happen in this city. I am sure a lot of the information fead to the paper comes from the City. They like to point the finger at what other people are doing rather than take responsibility for what they are failing to do. The SRC arena is a perfect example. SRC was getting all of the business and the OnCenter wasn't. They couldn't book the venue, so they find reasons to badmouth SRC in hopes that people would default back to the OnCenter. I know there are many more details and public money involved, but that was just a ploy to find out what the SRC was doing right and the City ws doing wronf with their event center.
I must say... the concept of two county-owned facilities competing against each other for the pool of business that barely was sustaining one just seems like a terrible idea. (The OnCenter's in the city, but it's a county owned and operated, albeit now through 3rd parties, facility. OCC, where SRC Arena is, is also run by the county, though somewhat less directly.)
But, the SRC Arena seems to be doing just fine and they are booking events. These events may have never come to Syracuse because the OnCenter didn't fit their needs or priced incorrectly because they didn't have any competition and could name any price they wanted. They have been forced to step it up to compete with SRC and that is a win/win for the community as far as I can see.
I wonder how soon the (chastened?) Council will vote to override its abandonment of Hiawatha and Solar. Those parcels are going to be pretty valuable at some point, and I doubt any future Planning Commission will grant any variances to Pyramid for mall-related development.
Well that was quick. The Council's voting on Monday to rescind the 1998 ordinance that abandoned three blocks of Hiawatha fronting the mall. Good for them. Perhaps that segment will now be included in the upcoming Complete Streets upgrade to the rest of that street. That'd be a very good thing for the neighborhood.
Regarding Urbanplanner's take on Congel: yes, everyone involved with the early redevelopment of Franklin Square (especially the private developer who, by all accounts, spearheaded the transformation) should be credited - it's a nice neighborhood and a good example of a public/private partnership.
That mall thing, though, is beyond the pale. I don't know that Pyramid is more dishonest than other developers, per se (although their record in litigation with contractors speaks volumes). But the end result here amounts to a fleecing of the city and county and a gross misuse of the green bonds program. I don't know that that should overshadow the Franklin Square work, but it surely can't be ignored.
But, the SRC Arena seems to be doing just fine and they are booking events. These events may have never come to Syracuse because the OnCenter didn't fit their needs or priced incorrectly because they didn't have any competition and could name any price they wanted. They have been forced to step it up to compete with SRC and that is a win/win for the community as far as I can see.
Of course it is. It's a new facility, versus the events it's taking (much moreso the War Memorial size events than taking convention business). It's the new shiny. Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have it competing against another county owned facility and paying for both.
Realistically, the War Memorial needs some substantial investment to make it really compete - something the county legislature has been very hesitant to do over the last few years even for stuff they contractually agreed to. Not exactly promising.
Canadians already spend about $60 million annually at the Carousel Center in Syracuse, N.Y. currently. The mall is expecting almost 30 million annual visits after the expansion, making it the second-most visited mall in the United States after the Mall of America in Minneapolis, Minn. Canadian shoppers are a big part of the mall's business, according to mall spokesman David Aitken, accounting for about 12 to 15 per cent of all expenditures.
I found this comment (to the report) by Citizen66189 to be interesting:
"Went to Massena 2 weeks ago to pick up a product that is sold at Home Depot in Canada. In Canada the piece sells for $8.75 per unit. In Home Depot in the states it sold for $3.75 a unit. I need 48 units. You do the math. Bought some construction boots, brand name $89.00 there , $189.00 in Canada. Sneakers, brand name again over $50.00 difference. Total bill, 350.00. Total bill in Canada would have been over $600.00. Claimed everything at boarder. Tax came to $15.00 GST. Was there for no more than 4 hrs. The tax on goods in the US ranged from a high of 7% down to less than 1%. So tell me that Canadian retailers can even compete. Gas or not its worth the trip. Oh and by the way, gas at Akwesasne was $1.15 a liter and they give you a coupon for the bridge fee."
To be fair, there was this comment by MacGyver24:
"I went to Carousel Mall a few months ago and I was bored out of my mind. Malls are so yesterday. I just order the exact item I want online and have it shipped to my doorstep for much less than the cost of fuel, meals, and bridge tolls. I don't even have to leave my home to shop. I don't have to waste time and fuel hunting all over town for something I might not even be able to find. "Going back to the future" as was once commonplace with Sears and Eaton catalogues, except now the catalogue is a webpage, and we order with a mouse instead of a mail-in form or a phone call."
I was most impressed by G-Man75 who goes shopping regularly in Syracuse and Watertown and noted that the friendliness of store / restaurant staff is noticeably better in the U.S. I think it is a good reflection on Syracuse (and Watertown), not just Destiny USA.
I go shopping in Syracuse and Watertown several times a year. Customer service and friendliness of store / restaurant staff is noticeably better in the U.S. I've always noticed this on my many trips there. They seem to appreciate their customers much more than we do here (certainly in Ottawa). I think this new expanded Carousel Mall is great news.I go shopping in Syracuse and Watertown several times a year. Customer service and friendliness of store / restaurant staff is noticeably better in the U.S. I've always noticed this on my many trips there. They seem to appreciate their customers much more than we do here (certainly in Ottawa). I think this new expanded Carousel Mall is great news.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 06-25-2012 at 12:18 PM..
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