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Not so. An Atheist believes that the available evidence suggests that there is no God. That's not a statement of faith. It's a description of what the evidence indicates is most likely. The atheist doesn't believe the evidence supports they hypothesis that there is a god, and in fact probably thinks the evidence contradicts a hypothesis.
Beyond that, when a person makes an extraordinary claim (and a supernatural God is about as extraordinary as they get) the burden is on them to prove it, and they must have equally extraordinary evidence. An atheist is a person who has determined that the theist haven't met their burden of proof.
But it's not about faith.
An agnostics takes no position. He is not committed to believing or disbelieving in a God.
It is indeed faith because the evidence does not suggest that there is no God. The evidence at this time suggests that there is Probably no God.
No both things you described are agnostic. Here are some standard dictionary definitions of the two
Merriam Websters:
Atheism a: a disbelief in the existence of deity
b: the doctrine that there is no deity
Meaning that their is one does not believe in God and follows a doctrine as such. The very word "disbelief", with limited understanding, implies faith that something does not exist. The other definition is more clear in representing faith as it says "the doctrine that there is no deity" if one makes an absolute statement such as that when for all we know it is possible if not improbably that an outcome can occur is taking that absolute on faith.
Agnosticism, has no faith as it lacks the absolute statements of atheism.
Agnosticism a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>
No claims made so no faith is needed end of story.
So what I am saying, and the video agrees with me I just do not like how they confuse Atheism and Agnosticism, is that there is no way to 100% tell on the existence or dis-existance of God(s) so by making an abosolute statement like saying "there is no God" puts the burden of proof as on the claimant as much as the burden of proof is on someone who says the opposite. Applying an absolute, whatever it is without sufficient evidence, requires faith faith end of story.
Atheism doesn't require faith. It doesn't require faith to not believe in the existence of invisible gnomes since there's no evidence for them. Likewise, it does not take faith to disbelieve in the existence of god since there is no valid evidence for the claim.
It is indeed faith because the evidence does not suggest that there is no God. The evidence at this time suggests that there is Probably no God.
No both things you described are agnostic. Here are some standard dictionary definitions of the two
Merriam Websters:
Atheism a: a disbelief in the existence of deity
b: the doctrine that there is no deity
Meaning that their is one does not believe in God and follows a doctrine as such. The very word "disbelief", with limited understanding, implies faith that something does not exist. The other definition is more clear in representing faith as it says "the doctrine that there is no deity" if one makes an absolute statement such as that when for all we know it is possible if not improbably that an outcome can occur is taking that absolute on faith.
Agnosticism, has no faith as it lacks the absolute statements of atheism.
Agnosticism a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>
No claims made so no faith is needed end of story.
So what I am saying, and the video agrees with me I just do not like how they confuse Atheism and Agnosticism, is that there is no way to 100% tell on the existence or dis-existance of God(s) so by making an abosolute statement like saying "there is no God" puts the burden of proof as on the claimant as much as the burden of proof is on someone who says the opposite. Applying an absolute, whatever it is without sufficient evidence, requires faith faith end of story.
Why would I call myself an Agnostic If I believe that there most likely isn't a god? Being a de facto atheist doesn't change the validity of my position but it gets rid of the notion that I do not have any opinions regarding the existance of a god(s).
Atheism doesn't require faith. It doesn't require faith to not believe in the existence of invisible gnomes since there's no evidence for them. Likewise, it does not take faith to disbelieve in the existence of god since there is no valid evidence for the claim.
Atheism does require faith because not enough is known to draw a definite conclusion on the matter at this time. 500 years ago not being open to the possibility of Unicorns on earth would have required faith because with 3 completely unexplored continents, from a Eurasian perspective, there was no way of knowing exactly what animals existed and which animals were legends. Now that we have explored even the most isolated land areas of the planet we can say with certainty that there are no Unicorns on earth. Perhaps when we have explored the entire universe and know more or less all of its workings and details we will be able to make a claim as to whether or not a divine being exists in this universe, but until then any claim that there is no god is just as faith based as the claim their is. The only purely logical answer is we haven't been able to adequately explore all aspects of the question yet so it is currently not possible to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
Why would I call myself an Agnostic If I believe that there most likely isn't a god? Being a de facto atheist doesn't change the validity of my position but it gets rid of the notion that I do not have any opinions regarding the existance of a god(s).
Key words are "I believe there is most likely not a god" I am not saying you should call your self an agnostic. In fact if you do indeed "believe" there is no god you are an atheist. However, you also have faith in that belief because there is not enough evidence available to draw a definite conclusion on whether god does or does not exist.
Atheism does require faith because not enough is known to draw a definite conclusion on the matter at this time.
First, I think there is enough known to draw a definite conclusion at this time. Unless by "definite conclusion" you mean we must have a metaphysical certitude, like we can prove 1+1 = 2. But I think there is at least clear and convincing evidence that there is no supernatural God.
Second, the burden of proof is on the theist. If I make a extraordinary claim, the burden is on me to prove it, and I must offer extraordinary evidence to prove it. So if I said "Santa is real", you should be able to say "no he's not" based solely on my inability to provide extraordinary evidence of the same. That's not the same thing as having faith.
Faith is an emotional, not logical choice. Choosing to believe the argument best supported by the evidence is not faith. It's just being rational.
Atheism does require faith because not enough is known to draw a definite conclusion on the matter at this time. 500 years ago not being open to the possibility of Unicorns on earth would have required faith because with 3 completely unexplored continents, from a Eurasian perspective, there was no way of knowing exactly what animals existed and which animals were legends. Now that we have explored even the most isolated land areas of the planet we can say with certainty that there are no Unicorns on earth. Perhaps when we have explored the entire universe and know more or less all of its workings and details we will be able to make a claim as to whether or not a divine being exists in this universe, but until then any claim that there is no god is just as faith based as the claim their is. The only purely logical answer is we haven't been able to adequately explore all aspects of the question yet so it is currently not possible to tell.
You can't know there are no unicorns on earth. They could be living underground or they could be living in the areas of the Congo that are impossible to get into or they could be invisible. Since there's no definitive evidence that there are no unicorns on earth then why not believe the that whether or not they exist is currently unknowable. I could also apply this logic to Santa Claus. You can't be one hundred percent sure there is no Santa Claus on earth. There's just no evidence that they exist so people don't believe in their existence. If there is no evidence that proves that a given claim is true, then the logical position is disbelief in that claims truth. You may never be able to tell with absolute certainty that something is or is not true, that doesn't mean it is logical to say that whether or not the claim is true is unknowable. There may be a degree of uncertainty of whether or not the claim is true, that doesn't mean it takes faith to not believe that a particular claim is true when there is no evidence that the claim is true. For example, most people don't believe in the existence of unicorns because there's never been any evidence that proves they exist. That doesn't mean that there is absolutely no evidence for their existence, since one day someone may discover evidence that proves there are unicorns on earth, although since there has never been any evidence that proves there are any unicorns on earth, then people profess disbelief in their existence.
Last edited by agnostic soldier; 04-20-2009 at 04:45 PM..
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